Well, it happened again!- After waiting in a slow moving line,waiting for a price check,and waiting for a slow checker who requested to see some I.D. then had to use a magnifying glass to READ it---The security machine at the door is set off by a tag the clerk failed to de-activate! The eldery gentleman at the door(security?)begins searching my just purchased packages.Moving at a neck breaking snails pace- he finally finds the item,a $15 calculator,de-activates the security strip and proceeds to write down the item number(WRONG number!)in his log book.The prcess takes about 5 minutes...My question is; do they have a right to search your(just paid for)items? Isn't this a violation of my 4th Amendment rights?---I've seen this security system set off at least 40-50 times while waiting in line at various times.I have yet to see them catch a shoplifter with it.So much for "probable cause".
Illegal search at Wal-mart?...
- Thread starter Danno
- Start date
If you had enough money to wade into the nearest fe-ral court and start hollering unreasonable search, invasion of privacy etc...
You would probally win, but as long as the search is limited to the Wal-mart bag and not say a ladies purse unless they come out and say "we have you on tape putting something in a purse."
I would just humor the Security guard and then go home. After all he is only doing his job
And look on the bright side, at least he wasn't an ATF agent moonlighting as a Mall-Ninja. The tip off would have been the smell of CS followed by the ensuing flames engulfing the entire store while he recklessly sprayed sub-gun rounds at the Quickie Store two blocks away...
You would probally win, but as long as the search is limited to the Wal-mart bag and not say a ladies purse unless they come out and say "we have you on tape putting something in a purse."
I would just humor the Security guard and then go home. After all he is only doing his job
And look on the bright side, at least he wasn't an ATF agent moonlighting as a Mall-Ninja. The tip off would have been the smell of CS followed by the ensuing flames engulfing the entire store while he recklessly sprayed sub-gun rounds at the Quickie Store two blocks away...
Unless walmart has become part of the federal government, you don't have any fourth ammendment rights with them. It's private property and you're there of your own free will to conduct business. They probably have a sign on the door or somewhere proclaiming they reserve the right to inspect all packages.
I head to walmart about 2-3 times a year. About 50 feet into the store I lose the urge to do business with them. Unfortunately I eventually forget about this, and come back in a few months, only to repeat the process.
I head to walmart about 2-3 times a year. About 50 feet into the store I lose the urge to do business with them. Unfortunately I eventually forget about this, and come back in a few months, only to repeat the process.
Scott Conklin
New member
Interesting question: I know I just paid for my stuff, cashier knows I just paid, what happens if I keep on walking? The old chick at the door certainly won't be stopping me. For those who live in small towns and are familar faces in them you know what I mean when I say calling the cops isn't an option. They'll show up, have a good laugh, look at those out of towners who work in Wally World with a quizzical glance and forget the whole incident.
I'm really not trying to be a snot but this sort of stuff just grates on my nerves and I know the first time I get the "This is the Wal-Mart Inventory Control System!" automated "God" voice I am just gonna keep on going. While they may be private property and have the right to search your stuff they, OTOH, don't have any legal right to stop you, do they? Or let's refine that: If they force you to stop they better find something stolen or else they be in deep crap, correct.
I'm really not trying to be a snot but this sort of stuff just grates on my nerves and I know the first time I get the "This is the Wal-Mart Inventory Control System!" automated "God" voice I am just gonna keep on going. While they may be private property and have the right to search your stuff they, OTOH, don't have any legal right to stop you, do they? Or let's refine that: If they force you to stop they better find something stolen or else they be in deep crap, correct.
If you had pressed the issue they would have had to detain you until police arrived and they searched your bags. I imagine that setting off the theft detection equipment and your refusal to allow the store rent-a-cop to search you would have been good enough for the police officer who arrived on the scene to claim "probable cause".
But technically the only way the WalMart security guard can search your bags is if you let him.
Keep in mind that store security are not allowed to touch you unless they have to detain you for violent behavior (if they do touch you it's technically battery).
As for myself, since I don't shoplift I don't mind stopping once in a while and let them look through my bag if one of the anti theft strips didn't get de-magnatized completely (or however the darn things work).
If it bugs you that much, don't shop at WalMart (but you'll be hard pressed to find a retail store that doesn't do the same thing).
If you're really bugged by it, you'll need to rally people to make those things illegal (and then please don't complain when the price of everything at WalMart goes up because shoplifting increases
).
But technically the only way the WalMart security guard can search your bags is if you let him.
Keep in mind that store security are not allowed to touch you unless they have to detain you for violent behavior (if they do touch you it's technically battery).
As for myself, since I don't shoplift I don't mind stopping once in a while and let them look through my bag if one of the anti theft strips didn't get de-magnatized completely (or however the darn things work).
If it bugs you that much, don't shop at WalMart (but you'll be hard pressed to find a retail store that doesn't do the same thing).
If you're really bugged by it, you'll need to rally people to make those things illegal (and then please don't complain when the price of everything at WalMart goes up because shoplifting increases
).This probably would not be an issue for me if it happened "once in a blue moon'' but I have been stopped and searched 3 times in the past 2 months- one of these times my wife and I were going INTO a Wal-mart store while vacationing in Kalifonia.The alarm was set off by a roll of film that had supposedly "de-activated" by another Wal-mart store after (guess what?!) the alarm was set off.
Perhaps I should just have a little fun next time-
I'll ask two questions:
-Am I being accused of shoplifting ?
-Am I under arrest?
If the answer is "no" I would assume I would be free to go!
Perhaps I should just have a little fun next time-
I'll ask two questions:
-Am I being accused of shoplifting ?
-Am I under arrest?
If the answer is "no" I would assume I would be free to go!
Scott Conklin
New member
Actually one time might not make me push their nerves. It happens, ya know. But if it happens repeatedly, as it has to several friends of mine, I think I'd have to ruin someones day. I suppose what annoys me most is this assumption of guilt. First, I don't steal, second, if I did I'm not dumb enough they'd never catch me, and third I dislike the idea of being associated with an element that does based on the incompetence of a cashier or the poor functioning of a machine.
Zundfolge-
I have a choice of TWO retail stores within an hours drive of my house;Wal-Mart and Fred Meyer, so I guess a BOYCOTT would not be an option! By the way,Fred Meyer has a system similar to Wal-marts-Never had a problem there!(Although their prices are higher!)
I doubt their prices would go up if they yanked their "inventory control system" - I recall reading that most thefts from retail stores are INSIDE jobs - their OWN EMPLOYEES ripping them off!
I have a choice of TWO retail stores within an hours drive of my house;Wal-Mart and Fred Meyer, so I guess a BOYCOTT would not be an option! By the way,Fred Meyer has a system similar to Wal-marts-Never had a problem there!(Although their prices are higher!)
I doubt their prices would go up if they yanked their "inventory control system" - I recall reading that most thefts from retail stores are INSIDE jobs - their OWN EMPLOYEES ripping them off!
A subject near and dear to my heart and one of the main reasons why I refuse to shop at Wally World.
You can ask those questions, but I can pretty much guarantee that you won't get a 'yes' or 'no' answer. You'll get a blank look, followed by: "Duh. Like, let me call my, like, supervisor."
In Texas, everyone has the right "to prevent the consequences of theft."
Your state will probably have something kind of similar in their laws.
The legal argument that you'll have to win is whether or not the bloody alarm at the door constitutes "reasonable ground to suppose..." that your bags may contain stolen property.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that the sky-high rate of false alarms rendered by the electronic scanners takes away any reasonable ground.
If you do ignore the alarm and the store security, you are liable to be seized and held for the local cops, where you'll have to prove that you bought the items in question.
And when you do prove that you did, indeed, buy the items, instead of rendering an apology, todays store will have the police bar you from ever entering the premises again.
LawDog
You can ask those questions, but I can pretty much guarantee that you won't get a 'yes' or 'no' answer. You'll get a blank look, followed by: "Duh. Like, let me call my, like, supervisor."
In Texas, everyone has the right "to prevent the consequences of theft."
Your state will probably have something kind of similar in their laws.
The legal argument that you'll have to win is whether or not the bloody alarm at the door constitutes "reasonable ground to suppose..." that your bags may contain stolen property.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that the sky-high rate of false alarms rendered by the electronic scanners takes away any reasonable ground.
If you do ignore the alarm and the store security, you are liable to be seized and held for the local cops, where you'll have to prove that you bought the items in question.
And when you do prove that you did, indeed, buy the items, instead of rendering an apology, todays store will have the police bar you from ever entering the premises again.
LawDog
Easy there!!!
I know those alarms are bothersome as hell, but they DO save a lot of merchandise. You would be surprised. I am a Loss Prevention specialist at Best Buy, and therefore I feel I am more than adequately qualified to comment.
First off, Wal-Mart, Best Buy, and just about any other retail store "reserves the right to inspect all packages". Most times this is posted on or near the exits. This is also upheld by many states and most local governments.
Most people know all about the tags, and even what they look like. However many items now have hidden tags buried in the packaging. A deactivator is hidden under the counter at the register and is turned on by the LP person when the register is turned on. As merchandise is payed for it is MOST times deactivated. However sometimes the tag on a larger item may ot be reached by the magnetic deactivator due to too large a distance.
Additionally many "punks" know that these alarms are set off frequently. What they attempt is to hie an item or two and then buy one. As they walk out the door and the alarm goes off they try to flash a receipt at myself or one of my counterparts. Most times I will deactivate the product, and ask them to step on the other side of the sensor so I can pass it thru. If the alarm goes off before myself and their product goes near the sensors, I have nabbed another punk.
Another thing to keep in mind. I know that many of you think that when this happens I am hassling you, or I am singling you out. Yes, you have the right to be embarassed, and If I discover that there was an obvious error made that caused the alarm, I will hold the persons responsible accountable for this. I am sorry. Customer loyalty is very important to our company. Yet, when someone begins to get testy with me, begins to chew me out or start getting excitable, I am forced to respond in kind. I am doing my job, trying to keep prices low, and make it easy for you to shop in an environment where everything isn't tied down by steel cables and locked behind glass. Please be understanding, because after all I deserve the same amount of respect that you demand as a customer.
I know those alarms are bothersome as hell, but they DO save a lot of merchandise. You would be surprised. I am a Loss Prevention specialist at Best Buy, and therefore I feel I am more than adequately qualified to comment.
First off, Wal-Mart, Best Buy, and just about any other retail store "reserves the right to inspect all packages". Most times this is posted on or near the exits. This is also upheld by many states and most local governments.
Most people know all about the tags, and even what they look like. However many items now have hidden tags buried in the packaging. A deactivator is hidden under the counter at the register and is turned on by the LP person when the register is turned on. As merchandise is payed for it is MOST times deactivated. However sometimes the tag on a larger item may ot be reached by the magnetic deactivator due to too large a distance.
Additionally many "punks" know that these alarms are set off frequently. What they attempt is to hie an item or two and then buy one. As they walk out the door and the alarm goes off they try to flash a receipt at myself or one of my counterparts. Most times I will deactivate the product, and ask them to step on the other side of the sensor so I can pass it thru. If the alarm goes off before myself and their product goes near the sensors, I have nabbed another punk.
Another thing to keep in mind. I know that many of you think that when this happens I am hassling you, or I am singling you out. Yes, you have the right to be embarassed, and If I discover that there was an obvious error made that caused the alarm, I will hold the persons responsible accountable for this. I am sorry. Customer loyalty is very important to our company. Yet, when someone begins to get testy with me, begins to chew me out or start getting excitable, I am forced to respond in kind. I am doing my job, trying to keep prices low, and make it easy for you to shop in an environment where everything isn't tied down by steel cables and locked behind glass. Please be understanding, because after all I deserve the same amount of respect that you demand as a customer.
Exit anti-theft alarms
Funny this should come up today. Yesterday the wife and I were at a home improvement store. The exit alarm was repeatedly going off. It would blare for a fifteen or twenty seconds, then stop, then reset and the whole thing would go on again. This must have cycled a couple dozen or so times while we were at the checkout. Nobody was going through the exit doors to make the alarm go off. They also wouldn't shut the damn thing off. Quite annoying.
99% of the time I get 'caught' by these stupid devices, the clerk either waves me through with a 'don't worry about it' or a 'oh, that damn thing...' The other 1% is where they (or the door checker) deactivates the anti-theft strip and sends me on my way without even looking at my reciept.
Great system, eh?
Funny this should come up today. Yesterday the wife and I were at a home improvement store. The exit alarm was repeatedly going off. It would blare for a fifteen or twenty seconds, then stop, then reset and the whole thing would go on again. This must have cycled a couple dozen or so times while we were at the checkout. Nobody was going through the exit doors to make the alarm go off. They also wouldn't shut the damn thing off. Quite annoying.
99% of the time I get 'caught' by these stupid devices, the clerk either waves me through with a 'don't worry about it' or a 'oh, that damn thing...' The other 1% is where they (or the door checker) deactivates the anti-theft strip and sends me on my way without even looking at my reciept.
Great system, eh?
There are no Fourth Amendment protections from a private enterprise. Remember when companies started doing drug tests? The issue was taken before the courts which ruled that the Fourth Amendment protects individuals from government not private enterprise.
As for the alarms, have you ever noticed that those who get involved with them very nonchalantly walk back into the store to see what made the alarm go off? I have yet to see anyone go sprinting across the parking lot when the annunciator goes off.
Personally, I have always thought it would be a kick to place one of the diodes (that's what they are, a tuned diode) on the floor with the stickum facing up so it will stick to the shoe of some poor unsuspecting schmuck. Imagine trying to find the cause of the alarm? Get naked!
As for the alarms, have you ever noticed that those who get involved with them very nonchalantly walk back into the store to see what made the alarm go off? I have yet to see anyone go sprinting across the parking lot when the annunciator goes off.
Personally, I have always thought it would be a kick to place one of the diodes (that's what they are, a tuned diode) on the floor with the stickum facing up so it will stick to the shoe of some poor unsuspecting schmuck. Imagine trying to find the cause of the alarm? Get naked!
In Ohio
Shopkeepers or their designated agents (read: loss prevention officers) have the right to detain anyone suspected of shoplifting until an peace officer (read: cop) can be summoned, provided undue force is not used.
What meets the definition of undue force? I dunno.
Yeah, thats right, I dunno. I have seen LPOs beat the ever-living snot outta some guy they suspected of stealing CDs. Granted, they confronted him and he swung on them, so its all good. But if the suspect-cum-victim had requested an assault report I would have taken one for him.
Oh, and suspicion of shoplifting is a jailable offense in Ohio under the ORC, be advised.
Mike
Shopkeepers or their designated agents (read: loss prevention officers) have the right to detain anyone suspected of shoplifting until an peace officer (read: cop) can be summoned, provided undue force is not used.
What meets the definition of undue force? I dunno.
Yeah, thats right, I dunno. I have seen LPOs beat the ever-living snot outta some guy they suspected of stealing CDs. Granted, they confronted him and he swung on them, so its all good. But if the suspect-cum-victim had requested an assault report I would have taken one for him.
Oh, and suspicion of shoplifting is a jailable offense in Ohio under the ORC, be advised.
Mike
P
PreserveFreedom
Guest
So the entire private security industry gets bashed again because of some uneducated bedwetters here. First of all, the door monitors at Wal Mart are not "rent-a-cops" or even security guards. They are full time employees of Wal Mart and therefore they are not Rent-a-Anythings. Is the gun on your night stand a rent-a-gun or did you buy it? Second, as mentioned, you are choosing to visit a private institution. Don't want to play by their rules? Don't visit said institution. It's crybabies like you that get CCW rights taken away from the rest of us. You'll cause a scene as you wrongly claim constitutional violations on private property and when you are locked up for inciting a riot, the media will explain how a man with a legally concealed handgun created a scene and was arrested at the local Wal Mart. Save us all some time and turn in your guns now.
I agree that no constitutional protections exist when dealing with private parties on private property. I also agree that these stores have the right to post "we reserve the right to search all bags" signs, and that when I enter the store, I'm agreeing to that policy. Trouble is, when I'm leaving the store, maybe it's because I've decided I no longer agree with the policy, and I no longer chose to avail the store of my business. It matters not if I’ve made a purchase. So they detain me because I've chosen that I no longer want to do business with them, and because of a policy that I've chosen no to agree to, as evidenced by my attempt the leave their property. Sounds like unlawful inprisonment.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Dean,
A similar line of reasoning was actually tried in Pennsylvania some years ago in a lawsuit, IIRC.
It didn't pan out. The court held that since the individual entered the store, he was bound by store policy until he successfully exited the store again. Simply put, you can't change the rules in the middle of the game simply because you feel like it.
Jim Peel,
Some friends and I did almost exactly what you describe when we were in college. The library had a system that identified books with a magnetic metallic strip.
We pulled a strip from a book, and threaded it into the strap on another guy's backpack. We had a grand time watching him try to leave the library.
A similar line of reasoning was actually tried in Pennsylvania some years ago in a lawsuit, IIRC.
It didn't pan out. The court held that since the individual entered the store, he was bound by store policy until he successfully exited the store again. Simply put, you can't change the rules in the middle of the game simply because you feel like it.
Jim Peel,
Some friends and I did almost exactly what you describe when we were in college. The library had a system that identified books with a magnetic metallic strip.
We pulled a strip from a book, and threaded it into the strap on another guy's backpack. We had a grand time watching him try to leave the library.
citizenguardian
New member
I'm surprised so many here are reluctant to walk out of the store.
Of course Wal-Mart or whoever doesn't violate your constitutional rights by trying to stop you, searching your bags, or grabbing you, or even beating the crap out of you. But so what? That's not the end of the issue. Someone who grabs you on the street, looks through your bag without your permission, or just detains you with a threat commits a crime even if he doesn't violate your constitutional rights.
Wal-Mart's employees are subject to the law just like everyone else. If they are going to lay hands on you, they had better have a good reason. There's no law against walking out of a store. And Wal-Mart can't threaten you or use force to detain you against your will just because they drew up some sign for their window concering their "rights" to search your bags. Their blue vests and name tags don't give them any special powers. Suppose you put a sign up in your window: "Owner reserves the right to threaten or physically coerce all who enter". Good luck getting out of an assuault and battery charge when you exercise this "right" on someone in your house-- and that sign's a lot more explicit than some sentence about rights to search your bags.
So, if Wal-Mart or whoever is going to stop you, they need a good reason, like a suspicion of theft. They need a good case for thinking that you're committing a crime, in other words-- just as you would if you grabbed some guy on the sidewalk.
It's not just a criminal matter, either. If someone is detained and inured, the store faces stiff civil liability unless they can justify the actions of their employees.
And, whatever some of you think, that the dumb machine up front went off ain't gonna cut it as a reason to threaten or attack a citizen. You wouldn't have to call an electrical engineer to the stand to remind a jury that those machines go off all of the time without anyone stealing a thing. They go off when the sales chick doesn't deactivate the whatever-it-is, they go off when you buy something in the sporting goods department and they forget to clip the tag, they go off for who-knows-what reason.
But don't just take my word for it. Retailers all know this good and well, too. That's why they'd be off of their rocker to do anything other than instruct their employees to leave you be unless they see you conceal some item and then walk out of the store with it. And that's exactly their policy, unless they're nuts.
Several times that machine made noise at me at Wal-Mart. I don't steal. But I didn't want to stop and be searched just because Wal-Mart's equipment doesn't work right. So, I just kept going. The old guy in the front of Wal-Mart came out a couple of times after me. I was friendly with him-- I've got no beef with him-- but I said that I didn't take anything and the machine was just wrong and that I hoped he had a good day. I smiled as I said it, but I didn't stop.
Anyone here think these circumstances would justfy threats or even violence to detain me until the cops arrive?
If you said, "no", good job! You win the good legal sense award for the day. If you said, "yes" and you do retail work, don't let your resume become dated, and keep your lawyer's card handy.
deanf wrote:
LawDog wrote:
Reminds me of the local CompUSA store, where they have a guy at the door going through every bag as people are leaving to see if the merchandise matches the receipt. One day, they only had ONE guy there, who was falling further and further behind, since there was a whole row of registers ringing up people's purchases. After waiting in line to pay for quite a while, I was in no mood to waste more time standing in line with the rest of the sheeple to leave, so I walked around everyone. The guy asked me to stand in line - I refused, and told him if he wanted to check my purchase, he could do it NOW. He tried to argue, so I just left. Followed by at least half the people in the line.
In a purely practical sense, I've yet to see any store security person (other than the occasional sworn LEO who's moonlighting) that's capable of stopping people who don't want to be stopped.
NO constitutional protections? None at all? So they can inflict cruel and unusual punishment, imprison you, or even enslave you with impunity? You have NO rights at all on private property? I don't think so . . .
LawDog wrote:
Hmmm...I've heard of court orders and injunctions doing this, but now a cop can? I'd be interested in exactly which law permits LEO's - rather than courts - to do this.
Reminds me of the local CompUSA store, where they have a guy at the door going through every bag as people are leaving to see if the merchandise matches the receipt. One day, they only had ONE guy there, who was falling further and further behind, since there was a whole row of registers ringing up people's purchases. After waiting in line to pay for quite a while, I was in no mood to waste more time standing in line with the rest of the sheeple to leave, so I walked around everyone. The guy asked me to stand in line - I refused, and told him if he wanted to check my purchase, he could do it NOW. He tried to argue, so I just left. Followed by at least half the people in the line.
In a purely practical sense, I've yet to see any store security person (other than the occasional sworn LEO who's moonlighting) that's capable of stopping people who don't want to be stopped.