Illegal Immigrant invasion or War in Iraq (Bringing "freedom" to the middle east)

What is more important, Illegal invasion or Middle East Problems

  • Illegal Immigrant invasion is THE real issue in protecting America

    Votes: 22 47.8%
  • Bringing Freedom to the Middle East (Iraq, et al) is THE real issue in protecting America

    Votes: 1 2.2%
  • Freedom in Mid East is important, but Illegal Immigrant invasion is more important

    Votes: 17 37.0%
  • Illegal immigrant invasion is a problem, but bringing freedom to Mid-East is more important

    Votes: 6 13.0%

  • Total voters
    46
Basically your entire post can be boiled down to (paraphrased) “I’m going to guess at these several facts and based on those guesses, bash Bush’s policies”. Nice.

I’m not a fan of many of Bush’s policies (actually aside from his handling of terrorism, I dislike most of them), but at least I’m intellectually honest enough to base my views of his policies on actual facts, not suppositions that are skewed against him to begin with for the primary purpose of disliking him.
 
My analysis of Bush is based on performance. After 9/11, I thought it was good that he was president as would do a better job than Gore.

However, he has failed in dealing with our major problems. Disliking him is a side effect of his incompetence.

Doug's rant was a naive set of questions based on a shallow understanding of the failures of the current administration.
 
I looked at the result of the poll and was disappointed. As long as haji thinks that killing kafir children will please his false god, no one will be safe. When the first suitcase nuke goes off here, remember that you heard it here first.
 
a president that would allow any circumstance that weakens his country's society is one of two things..either a disinterested person or wanting it to happen on purpose for a reason....either way America will lose...
 
I would have taken the whole "War on Terror" thing more seriously if, when 9/11 happened, the government had closed the borders, rounded up and deported everyone with an expired visa, or who was otherwise here illegally. As it stands, it's tough for me to get worked up about the crisis level rainbow (Condition Yellow, etc...) and the threat of terrorism when they won't even stop the flow of illegals crossing the Rio Grande. As far as I'm concerned, their inaction proved that this was just another invented crisis that enabled them to strip away another chunk of The Constitution.
 
Eghad...

What defines democracy in an Islamic nation?

A few months ago Afghans wanted to put a man on trail for his life for converting from Islam to Chritianity. Is that democracy? Individual rights have been subverted by Islamic religious law. So have we truly exported democracy?

Excellent point, my exact arguments to those who support these kinds of wars thinking the whole world wants democracy. Truth is not everyone wants it/is ready for it. Our goal as a country should be our security, not to force our beliefs on others.

To Glenn E. Meyer, your comment about Bush vs. cultural sensitivity was probably the most lucid comment I've heard in while about this situation. I wonder why they hate America? No it's not because they hate freedom, it's because we're insensitive to their culture. All those who decide "Islam is evil, Christianity/Judaism/Israel is ALWAYS right." rehtoric being spewed out probably doesn't help either. Yes, it's true that we should fight terrorists, however as you have stated Glenn, what form of government an occupied country wants should be of no concern to us!! As long as that occupied country is no longer a threat to us, why should it matter what government they have? Wanna know why freedom in Iraq isn't working? Because the Arabs have been used to their culture for a long period of time, obviously they don't want change. This question goes out to any American, wouldn't you fight an occupying force who deemed that you need a new political system? Of course you would, nobody wants a new form of government FORCED on them. Let's not also forget that as much as many Americans may want to ignore this, the Arabs have been around for a VERY long period of time, there are things in their culture we may not understand because our views clash with theirs. Also remember, we send over American companies to "help" rebuild which makes no sense, shouldn't the Iraqis be given the right to rebuild with no competition from American companies so they have a better idea on how to set up an economy that works for them?

Epyon
 
To edb10

I would have taken the whole "War on Terror" thing more seriously if, when 9/11 happened, the government had closed the borders, rounded up and deported everyone with an expired visa, or who was otherwise here illegally. As it stands, it's tough for me to get worked up about the crisis level rainbow (Condition Yellow, etc...) and the threat of terrorism when they won't even stop the flow of illegals crossing the Rio Grande. As far as I'm concerned, their inaction proved that this was just another invented crisis that enabled them to strip away another chunk of The Constitution.

+1000 well put, and exactly why I don't take the Color Code Twister game seriously. Oh by the way today's color code is right hand on orange, right hand on orange.


Epyon
 
"They" is US!!!
WE ALLOW WHAT HAPPENS HERE. THE GOVERNMENT IS A BUNCH OF ELECTED OFFICIALS. DON'T LIKE IT? DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. IT'S CALLED DEMOCRACY.
THE FAULT IS OURS...

s
 
Socrates...

You're right, here's the problem though, most of the "elected" officials are also lobbied by corporations. As for writing to our officials even if we do, what more? Should they choose not to listen then what? Short of having a coup and actually living up to what the second amendment grants us the power to do to our government I would say a lot of people would have to wise up and wake up to the fact that while they're distracted by deadlines, media, personal problems etc. and being bombarded by massive amounts of information daily, a lot of people seem detached/disenfranchized about their government and have the defeatist attidue of "What's the point" and to some extent they are right, in the sense that these officials get high off power, and just slowly push things for most to not notice that something isn't right. Also as officials leave office more officials like them are elected and continue to constantly push that agenda into existence, hence why losses of freedom are gradual. The fact that the People are complacent and inactive with politics is a HUGE hinderance to freedom.


Epyon
 
Brendan Nelson, the federal education minister of Australia definitely has it right. Visit abc.net and search Brendan Nelson islamic law. If we would take this stance with illegal immigrants and those wishing to change Americas values, terrorism and illegal immigration problems would be non-existent.
 
Well. Interesting responses. My take on it is that:

1) The so called "War on Terror" is vague and can be made to mean anything the President wants it to mean from moment to moment. One day it can mean hunting down Osama Bin Laden and his band of murderers another day it can mean bringing "freedom" to the Mid-East and another day it can mean tapping phone lines and illegal search and seizures and violating other basic liberties in the name of security. It is not a real war on a specific nation declared Constitutionally by Congress. It is a vague political slogan and anyone who disagrees with it must be against fighting terrorists somehow.

2) Seems like President Bush's favorite word in the english language is "freedom." That word flys from between his teeth every other sentence in his endless speeches (He may have more airtime than Clinton did as amazing as that may seem). It's almost his religion. It gets thrown around so much that it ceases to have any meaning except for what he want's it to mean. It has gone from being freedom from tyranny and able exercise fundamental God given liberties as a responsible people in the Christian West as our forefathers understood it to some vague ideological egalitarian French Revolutionary word used to justify whatever you happening to be doing at the moment. It has become a religion to him and other neo-cons. Really this is nothing new, it is something that has been developing since the European Enlightenment in the 16th and 17th centuries and picked up in America by Unitarian and Abolitionist thinking in the 19th century. In this case we have to go remake the Mid-East into some kind of Western style Democracy with our idea of "freedom." All we are doing is replacing one dictator with another potential dictator. As Mr. Meyer said, there are vast cultural differences. These people in the Mid-East are tribes who have been fighting among each other for 3000 years predating even Islam itself. There are deep cultural and tribal and religious differences that go back centuries. What makes the President think he is going to solve it now in 2006. Furthermore, a lot of arab people are offended by what we in modern America consider "freedom." Pornography, abortion, the way we view women, our entertainment industry, our materialistic culture. Regardless of how you, the reader, personally feel about these issues the fact is that many ordinary everyday Islamic Arabs are offended by these things and thus want nothing to do with the West and wants the West to have nothing to do with them. To paraphrase Professor Richard Weaver, "we are seeking to stamp out evil and thereby spreading it." In other words, we are creating even more problems than we attempt to solve when we just going into countries and overthrowing their governments and remake them and our image.

3) None of this has anything to do with hunting down and destroying the terrorists who are responsible for 9/11. We can't go around and police the world. There are MANY countries in the world that have terrorist cells in varying degrees and types and many who have even more brutal dictators than Saddam Hussein. We would have to invade most of Africa, the rest of the mid East, far East Asia and parts of latin America if we are to truly follow this "War on Terror" and "Operation Freedom" through.

4) In the meantime, not only are America's borders unsecure and being overrun by foreigners, but European nations are suffering the same problem. Just as massive Mexican legal and illegal immigrants are swarming into the United States, Europe is being flooded with Arab and Muslim immigrants. People say to me all the time about Iraq "well, it's better to fight them there than fight them here." What the heck does that mean? They are already here! Not only is Mexico swarming over our borders, but Islamic terrorists are in our country already. This hurts our economy, our liberty and most importantly our culture and identity as a people. America is a country like any other in the world. It has just as much right to exist as any other. Mexicans wouldn't appreciate "gringos" flooding down into their cities and states influencing them to change their laws and customs to suit us. Why should we feel any different?

5) The above said problem is a clashing of countries and cultures and will ultimately, sooner or later, lead to war. A bloody conflict not just between armies but among civilians of each country mixed on the same soil. This has happened before in history. What makes us think that it can't happen again just because we are "America: The Greatest Country on Earth" But we have our armies away on foreign soil trying in a futile effort to solve their problems leaving our borders unprotected.
 
I did not vote because stopping immigration and bringing American-style democracy to the arab world are both hopeless causes.

Folks from south of the border work hard, party hard, and take good care of their families. Also, Americans don't know how to make the stuffed peppers with walnut sauce for the holidays. I would welcome them with frosty drinks if I lived on the border.

As for the arabs, we need to leave them the heck alone and let them do their own thing as long as they don't instigate anything. When the law of the land is enforced through bodily mutilation, torture, and execution for a few thousand years, it's tough for them to respect liberal democracy or understand how it can be effective.
 
I did not vote because stopping immigration and bringing American-style democracy to the arab world are both hopeless causes.

Sure you can stop it. For starters, bring the men in Iraq and Afganistan home and put them down on the border to protect and defend it (as they swore an oath to do). Sure is a lot more worthy of and productive of their time than trying to bring "freedom" and "peace" to the Mid-East at the point of a bayonet.

Stopping legal immigration need be done with an act of congress. Illegals could be gradually over a 20 year period rounded up and deported. America could then allow immigration at safe levels that would protect our security, economy and preserve our culture allowing a smaller level of immigrants to absorb into ours rather than clash with us and/or take us over.

Whether this all takes place depends on the people of these United States. People are getting tired of this as is clearly demonstrated by the polls
 
Sure you COULD stop immigration, but why would you want to? I'm real glad my ancestors were able to immigrate to this country in vast, unregulated masses.

American culture is energized and morphed in nifty ways by immigration and we are a better nation because of this.
 
oldbillthundercheif...

American culture is energized and morphed in nifty ways by immigration and we are a better nation because of this.

Though I agree with your sentiments because I am also an immigrant, I do understand that having borders that are too open just means reduced border security. However, I do find it rather unfair that there are parts of America where Spanish is the only way you can get around the area. (Miami for instance.) My family and a good number of Bengalis came here and learned English, yet in these other parts of America they want Americans to speak Spanish? If keeping your language is important, then that's fine but if you're going to live in a country where there are PEOPLE FROM AROUND THE WORLD you should at least adapt to living here and learn the language, it's only fair, no one forced them to come here. Yet I must also make the argument, that Europeans also immigrated to this country both legally and illegally back in the day.


Epyon
 
I agree that illegal immigration is a problem but please, please, PLEASE for the love of the god I don't believe in (pick one, cause I adhere to none :p ) don't call it an invasion. THese are unarmed (for the most part) civilians coming from a crappy country. I liken it more to refugees than an invading force.

Eghad, Christians did the same thing back with the Puritans, Knight Templar, Vatican, etc. mostly to other Christians. So don't try to pin Islam as this crazy religion because Christianity has topped it on the evil things it's done in the past. Who started the Crusades, both the French and Spanish Inquisitions, Salem Witch Trials, African slave trade (both proposed by a Priest and justified by the Bible), etc.? Yes, that was in the past but it was back when the world was a lot more primitive. Now think about the countries we are "liberating and bringing democracy".......they're basically at the same level of technology and thinking.

In fact the Alabama (or was it Arkansas.....probably both) constituition will not allow atheists to hold office, talk about Democracy there. :rolleyes:
 
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