If we leave Iraq, what happens to the supporters of democracy?

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This is much more simple than people make it. Stay and fight Muslim extremists over there, or leave and fight them here. If we cut and run Al Quida will, for the first time, have an entire country to train in, (Iraq), and another country to fund them, (Iran). More Americans will die if we run than if we fight. These people want nothing from us. They simply want to exterminate us. Bill T.
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That is getting very old. They already have several countires "over there" where they can do as they please. Even our "ally" Pakistan is on a knife's edge in not condoning them while at the same time allowing them large potions of land in which to do as they please.

The idea that "we are fighting them there so they do not come here" is a fallacy. Proof in point, the terrorists prefer to hit easy targets to minimize their losses. That is why we have seen FAR more Iraqi civilian casualties than US troops. Since it is plain they prefer to kill defenseless civilians rather than armed troops wouldn't they arleady be blowing up US citizens across the USA if they could rather than fighting our troops in Iraq?

Iraq has become srping training for terrorists throughout the Islamic world and we are helping to recruit them better than any signing bonus ever offerred! The idea that we should continue to stand there and let them beat on us is insanse.

I see no problem with leaving, it is the IRAQI'S COUNTRY. Yes, we left South Vietnam and it fell. Perhaps if it couldn't stand on its own after the French tried and then we did it didn't deserve to stand on its own. Perhaps Iraq is the same thing.

I agree we went in with too few troops to begin with but I don't think we should have gone in there with the intention of staying. Secure any WMD programs, remove the current leadership, put someone we think suited in power and get out! Let them run themsleves or if the rest of "the worl" feels so strong about it have the UN fix the mess for once. What will not work is leaving US troops there. This is not Japan or Germany. We are not dealing with an organized governemnt that surrenders. We are not going to have a final Victory in Iraq that "Ends Terrorism". Putting American "Crusaders" (as they are viewed in the Islamic world) in an Islamic land for any length of time creates insurgents and terrorists more than anything else. I in no way agree with Bin Laden but a major beef he had with the USA was our troops being in Saudi Arabia. If that presence drove a hatred so great it led to 9/11 what do you think we are currently doing?
 
Some would say that our country would not have gotten its start if it weren't for the assistance of European allies at the time. I want to give Iraq the opportunity to get their start with a more democratic form of government. They don't have to be our friends, but I would prefer it so.
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And the French helped us why? It had nothing to do with a love for the American Colonists of English descent. It had everything to do with being a thorn in Great Britian's side.

I also am trying to recall at what point the French forces occupied the United States while the colonists repeatedly killed each other and their "liberators".

We have given Iraq far more of a helping hand than anyone has cause to expect. If they cannot hold themselves up at this point, with us gone, then perhaps they have no right to stand. If the "people" of Iraq do not unify behind the current leadership in sufficient numbers to oppose the "minority" trying to destroy them then perhaps the minority is really the majority?

What are people trying to create here? Are we looking to have a free democracy governed by the people? Is that acceptable if the people in reality don't liek us or want us there? Alternatively are we trying to create a puppet state to use for our own global strategic purposes? If that is the case then the streets of Iraq will continue to run with US soldiers' blood and eventually the streets of America will run with civilian blood as well. Any other belief is fantasy.
 
Yep. Sit home. Spend all our money on ourselves. Cooperate with cooperative nations by trading carrots and let the others beat each other to death if they want using the leftover sticks.

The only problem I see with that is we'll have to come up with a new War on Something Fun and Benign (maybe Sunday picnics) to make use of all the hardware laying around from the Cold War and the War on Terra.
 
The Bottom Line is the the Iraqis are the ones who decide what they want.
They have to decide which way they want to go.
 
What the Iraqi's "want" is of little importance. Islam is at war with every Christian on the surface of this planet. It's a worldwide problem. Our countrys failure to acknowledge this is going to get a lot of Americans killed. Look at Continental Europe. Muslims are rioting all over France and most all other countries they occupy in any great numbers. East Timor, Indonesia, Sumatra, Java, have all had to deal with these nutcases. We will be no different. This crap of running isn't going to work because they aren't going to stop. This is without question the most dangerous enemy we as a nation has ever faced in our history. They don't want our land, or money, or our natural resources. They simply want to kill us. All of us. How they succeed or fail depends on what we do. Avoidance isn't going to solve anything. This whole mess is larger and more profound than most anyone in this country can imagine, or wants to. All the armchair analysis on this planet isn't going to solve what awaits us. A war most Americans would never conceive in their wildest nightmares. I pray we're ready to fight it. I seriously doubt we are. Bill T.
 
They don't want our land, or money, or our natural resources. They simply want to kill us. All of us. How they succeed or fail depends on what we do. Avoidance isn't going to solve anything. This whole mess is larger and more profound than most anyone in this country can imagine, or wants to.
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ThHis sounds like the constant mantra from the Administration of "They hate our freedom." If I hear that inane babble of illogical thoguth from the admin one more time I may vomit. I AM a Conservative and I can't stand the patronizing tone. The people running the war have no understanding of the people we are fighting or what motivates them. That was proven from day one. Now for them to break it down to something as stupid as "Ugg, Dem Hate Freedom" is an insult to everyone's attention. The people in Iraq will ahve the system THEY want, irregardless of what we want. The question is how many American bodies will be stacked up before we get there.

If land and money means nothing in this fight then what are we accomplishing by sitting in the middle of an Islamic nation and acting as a lightning rod for these nut cases? While I certainly do not agree with the precepts of Islam it is not the vast majority that is committing these atrocities. They recruit from that majority though and our sitting in the middle of Iraq is serving to drive more and more Muslims who wouldn't normally take part into the ranks of the extremeists.

"torture" photos
Accidental killings of Iraqi Civilians
Actual crimes committed by our troops ( a small minority but with a very disproportionate affect)

All these things drive more and more followers to the extremists promoting violence. Right now every attack in Iraq, against anyone, is construed as an attack against the occupying Americans. REMOVE the Americans! Sudennly it becomes a clear case of extremists attacking moderates of the same religion. That will not spread nearly as badly and also not cost American blood. We have done what we planned. The regieme is changed and theer is no longer any threat of WMD programs in Iraq. Now Leave!

Perhaps someone supporting the continuation of our war in Iraq can explain to me WHAT the mission is? I am certain the poor kid with a rifle has no idea what it is besides NOT being immoliated by an IED. Right now we tell our troops to drive around until someone tries to kill them, then respond. This is asinine.

Yes, militant Islam is one of the greatest threats facing the civilized world. You cannot fight it though by doing everything possible to create new recruits for them. Occupying a nation when national boundries mean nothing in this type of war is stupid. Especially when that occupation puts us at our most vulnerable and creates the greaets propaganda for the terrorists imaginable. We could not help out there recruiting efforts more if we actually paid people to join AlQaida.

I full support what when on in Afganistan but we have diverted resources from that nation, which actually harborred militant Islamic terrorists, to maintain an occupation of a nation with nothing to do with militant Islam. Hussein was a bad dude but at the same time he was a bigger enemy of the militants than we ever were inside Iraq. They didn't show their faces when he ran the show. Now they do television interviews.
 
"The people running the war have no understanding of the people we are fighting or what motivates them."

But you do????? Bill T.
 
Notice how, when faced with the consequences of what they propose (and let us be honest, surrender and retreat is what they want) the anti-war folks want to talk about whose fault it is? Why is that? Because even they know surrender means handing Jihadist their greatest victory.

But you know what? They don't care. They could care less what the consequences are as long as they get their petty revenge on W. That is what is so pathetic, so utterly despicable about the left (and frankly, a lot of leftys who parade around as libertarians), they are so short-sighted and spiteful that they will surrender our honor, dignity and the security of future generations just to say "I told you so." I recoil in disgust every-time I turn on the TV or read the paper and see these dirtbags gleefully report the latest bad news.

Don't kid yourself, the left is positively orgasmic at the prospect of America losing this war.
 
You know before this is all over someone is going to manage to detonate a nuke inside this country. At that point the gravity of the situation with these Islamic / Moslem whatevers will finally be all too apparent. And all these people who seem to want to pretend that we don’t have a real problem brewing. will start back peddling and equivocating. In the end this is going to be a worldwide conflict and will have to be fought like a real war where you kill people without regard for political correctness. And in real wars people die as in civilians as in women and children, fathers and sons, mothers and daughters, brothers and sisters. Our leaders are too concerned with trying to keep as many people / countries happy as possible and are blind to what this is developing into, and I’m afraid they aren’t going to wake up to it before it’s too late.

I think the only thing me and you can do is buy more guns while you still can. I think before it’s all done you may need them.
 
"In the end this is going to be a worldwide conflict and will have to be fought like a real war where you kill people without regard for political correctness. And in real wars people die as in civilians as in women and children, fathers and sons, mothers and daughters, brothers and sisters."

Exactly. We didn't worry about "political correctness" when Curtis LeMay roasted 50,000 men, women, and children in their beds when he firebombed Tokyo. Or when we killed over 200,000 in a nano second in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We won't after enough Americans are killed to make these "diplomacy artists" realize you win a war by killing the enemy, not talking to them after they kill thousands of us. These radical Islamic nutcases want to kill, period. Armchair "experts" think they've got it, and them, figured out. They know squat. Your right in the fact all of this jaw flapping is going to end with a nuclear device going off in this country. It's not "if", but when and where. I just wonder what this nations body count is going to have to be before these idiot's wake up? Bill T.
 
See - that's the thing. You think that our actions and continuing presence in Iraq have some sort of connection with preventing acts of terrorism against American citizens, that we still belong in Iraq, that it isn't a charlie-foxtrot, and that cutting our losses is going to embolden our "enemies" and result in terrorists coming to attack the US. Congratulations! You're one of many many people.

So, if it's true, why not bring up facts that actually unambiguously reinforce your opinion, rather than the opposite?
 
"So, if it's true, why not bring up facts that actually unambiguously reinforce your opinion."

We haven't been hit since 9/11. Thats a FACT thats good enough for me. Bill T.
 
We haven't been hit? Untrue. We've been punched repeatedly in the Bill of Rights, and it'll take a long time to recover.

I'm sure binLaden is laughing up his sleeve over that.
 
This is much more simple than people make it. Stay and fight Muslim extremists over there, or leave and fight them here. If we cut and run Al Quida will, for the first time, have an entire country to train in, (Iraq), and another country to fund them, (Iran). More Americans will die if we run than if we fight. These people want nothing from us. They simply want to exterminate us. Bill T.
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Bill do you really need to do more research, because you sound terribly ill-informed.

Al Qaeda had the entire country of Afghanistan.

Iran and Al Qaeda are not allies. They actually consider each other apostates. Al Qaeda is more closely aligned with Wahhbi Islam generally associated with Sunni Islam while Iran is Shia. They don’t like each other. Iran supports Hamas and Hezbollah.

It’s this kind of lack of understanding about the Middle-East that has gotten us into this mess in Iraq. Remember “they’ll greet us as liberators”. That line was uttered by a clown that has no idea what the cultural issues of Iraq were.

Bush's daddy knew the issues like this, which is part of the reason we didn't invade Iraq and depose Hussien in 1991.

From "A World Transformed" by George H. W. Bush and Brent Scrowcroft

Chapter 19
Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq.The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under the circumstances, there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different — and perhaps barren — outcome.
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"We haven't been hit? Untrue. We've been punched repeatedly in the Bill of Rights, and it'll take a long time to recover."

Stop talking foolish. No Americans have died in this country from terrorists attacks since 9/11. That didn't happen by accident. The war isn't going well. People don't like that. "Get out", "Run", "We shouldn't have gone in the first place." You armchair fools don't know a thing of what you speak. If we were hit, you'd scream the loudest with more of your nonsense of what we should have done. This war is based on Islam. They hate Christians. They hate the way we live. They hate our freedoms. They hate the way our women dress. They hate the music we listen to. They hate everything we hold dear. They want to kill us because of it. All of your silly bull$h!t isn't going to change it. You think you've got all of this figured out better than the people in charge do. My suggestion is for all of you who think we're making this big mistake, and know so damn much is to run for public office and sell your "platform" to the American people. It won't take much, they're going to elect Democrats that have no platform. After you accomplish that and are then in a position to really do something and implement your "plan of action", you can then gloat in your "victory". Something tells me all you'll ever accomplish is to be a legend in your own mind. Or better yet, go live in Spain. they were smart and got out. Perhaps you can design bomb proof commuter trains for them. They caved in and where did it get them? Bill T.
 
We haven't been hit since 9/11. Thats a FACT thats good enough for me. Bill T.
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And what exactly does that have to do with an ongoing occupation of Iraq? Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11 or the spread of Islamic Extremism. Of those two facts there is no doubt. The dismantling of AlQaida in Afghanistan may have helped prevent more domestic attacks but the only thing Iraq has done is provide a spring training ground for terrorists and increase their recruitment.

Now understand I supported going into Iraq, and still stand by that decision, to stop the WMD programs that were according to all parties (supporters and detractors) in existence. I also do not say a WMD program means a big bomb is sitting there but it is the ongoing or preserved infrastructure espablished specifically for and that would allow Iraq to develope such weapons. I also supported ousting the leader who required such actions. As I see it both of those have been done. Congratulations, mission accomplished now LEAVE. While we have been tied down in Iraq Iran has gone even farther towards extremism and WMD development and North Korea very well may now have nukes. How has letting our troops bleed out in Iraq counterred either of those threats? I have yet to hear a Neo-Con give a valid answer to that question.

First it was WMD, then it was Freedom, now it is The War on Terror, who knows what it will be next month in Iraq. I know this though, there was no Islamic Terrorism threatennign America in Iraq before we set up permanent camp there after the invasion. If we went in, slapped Hussein out of office, trashed any WMD programs and then left the nation to

I like how any person who thinks that the situation in Iraq is a Charlie Foxtrot is labelled a Liberal or member of the Left. Every person who knows me would be shocked to hear that! The sad thing is the supporters of the Iraq war are more than happy to name call and claim the sole mantle of patriotism yet fail to see their own hipocracy in this.

Right now we are the equivalent of a kid standing on top of a red ant mound that will NEVER empty. We are slapping them down as they climb our legs and bite us but more keep coming. We refuse to leave the ant mound because that would mean "Admitting Defeat and letting the Ants Win!"

Does anyone really think that the terrorists will stop attacking us as long as we sit in Iraq with a huge "shoot me" sign over our heads? Wouldn't it be better to maintain our forces to react to and crush problems as we see them than to bog them down making them unable to deploy elsewhere?
 
Oh man. Not the elephant theory. I thought you could do better than that, Bill!

Going into Iraq does nothing to keep us from "being hit," Willful ignorance of that sort is disingenuous. Hey, I play the trombone to keep elephants out of my yard. It obviously works, because no elephants come in my yard!

If I wanted to "hit" the US, it would only take me ten guys with a reasonable ability to coordinate and follow instructions, with perhaps 500k financing money. A pittance, in reality.

In ten days after coming through the southern border, I could drop 2/3 of the internet as we know it offline, ignite coordinated brushfires that would make everything that's burned out west in the last few years look like nothing, kill power to multiple major cities for weeks if not months, and end it with a grand jihadi finale in a half dozen shopping malls with AK47s and suicide belts, not to mention a few targets of opportunity and fun-time with cellphones and rdx along the way. You want details? I can give you a five page action plan complete with price breakdowns.

The most complicated tool involved would be a backhoe.

Our administration does not care about genuine terrorist threats. Iraq has nothing to do with preventing terrorism. If the administration were truly concerned with terrorism, they would have sealed our porous border instead of calling independant groups who are concerned about it "vigilantes."

That's a hell of a lot more definitive than the tired old elephant and trombone rhetoric, even before you let the implications of it all sink in.
 
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