If the 2nd is an Individual right does that mean registration is unconstitutional?

Of course it's not always the case. On the other hand, you would have to look much harder to find an instance where confiscation wasn't preceded by registration.

Tim
:confused: so? cart then horse, of course registration would have to come first. but again, that doesn't mean it will lead to confiscation or that there's even a high likelyhood of it.

Now I would not be comfortable registering a gun to keep on my property any more than I'd be comfortable registering a car to keep on my property. However I have no qualms about registering to carry in public just as I have no qualms about registering - and being licensed! - to drive in public. :o
 
It would not be much of a stretch to include registration of make model and caliber of your (militia) arms, so that the Feds could accomodate your ammunition needs. Parker hinted at this.

Well it seems to me the requirement could be fulfilled without gun registration. why would your rifle/pistol need to be registered. It would seem to me that the army would have whatever caliber of ball/cap(post flintlock) available anyway and be able to provide it to you (the militia volunteers) upon your arrival to the camp or fort regardless of what type of weapon you had.

EDIT: Also back then, did you mostly mold your own ball with a tool that would shape it the your caliber of gun?
 
The government may impose reasonable restrictions on the
time, place, or manner of keeping or bearing arms, provided the
restrictions are narrowly tailored serve a compelling governmental or societal interest.

Now we're back to intent. Exactly what would this compelling governmental interest be?

I think it would be unconstitutional. Shall not be infringed is pretty clear.

I wouldn't have a problem with voluntarily registering myself as a gun owner/carryer, to the local boys (cty Sheriff) and qualifying annually as a show of faith to the community in which I live, that I am safe and have enough gun handling skills to not put my community in danger from recklessness.

What governmental interest is one that could not be handled locally, by the Sheriff?
 
Um, we are already in a "what if" scenario, per your initial post. Do you really want to conflate the issue with more "what ifs?"

Sometimes I wonder whether a check solely on the Feds should be evaluated in a vacuum, since the states are the ones usually messing up our lives altogether :)

But isnt it the states we are really talking about? How could the Feds meet a minimal burden of showing a compelling interest for Fed registration schemes.

A state could.

WildupearlyandworkingforyouamericaAlaska
 
If the 2nd is an Individual right does that mean registration is unconstitutional?

Registration is illegal and unconstitutional.

Whip out your copy of the Constitution of the United States of America.

Amendment X: If it ain't in the preceeding, the feds CANNOT do it. Trust me, registration of firearms isn't in there.

Amendment IV: We all have a right to be secure in our persons and papers. The feds cannot secure any data they have. Thus they cannot collect data about us with any assurance they can keep it secure.

Worse still, slimeball politicians and perverted bureaocrats are authorized access to government data and, as the Clintons publicly proved*, use it against anybody they take a dislike to. Lists of those prepared to defend themselves, their families and their communities should not exist. They are bound to land in the wrong hands eventually.



* How many of you remember that BJ Clinton was originally brough up on charges for using the IRS, Secret Service, FBI, CIA and others as personal weapons against his enemies? ... That they were caught in possession of FBI files on their enemies?

It was only a sympathetic press and lenient Congress that decided to let those charges drop and turn it into a sex scandal so the public would forget what people in power tend to do with that power. Both sides of the halls of congress LIKE having their turn and didn't want to break the machine that gives such pleasure.
 
Strictly speaking I do not see registration as unconstitutional. It is a scary path that haoften led to confiscation but as ain individual action registration, done properly, is not a violation as I see it.

This registration would have to cost the citizen nothing out of their pocket (requiring me to pay is an infringement). Anything in the way of confiscation IS an infringement. There are historical reasons as pointed out for knowing what is available in defense of the state.

I also do not see background checks or shall issue permits in and of themselves as violations. Yes, abuses can be listed. Names can be mistaken in a background check and there needs to be a system in place to resolve mistakes. Yes, no law can prevent a crime, we all know that. The fact is in a system dominated by popular votes many laws are going to appear based on emotion not fact. Nothing will change that. Permits and Registration are never going to be overturned on COTUS grounds as long as the mjority of law abiding citizens are able to exercise their rights to own and bear arms.
 
You have a right to free speech and assembly but need a permit to gather a demonstration in a city. That has been deemed acceptable on COTUS grounds as long as all groups are fairly allowed the opportunity.
 
Shall not be infringed is pretty clear.
Actually it's not. Preventing toddlers and the mentally insane from owning firearms is an infringement. Preventing everyone else from owning flame throwers and land mines is an infringement. Technically anything but pure unregulated ownership of any weapon whatsoever is an infringement and that would be a pretty lousy idea.
 
As a strict constructionalist Mr. Damright, you have to go back to the original intent. There was no registration of any milita weapons back then.
I think there was ... not a nationwide/federal gun registration, but I believe that there were localities that required gun ownership and had gun registration and even spot checks to make sure that a person was properly armed and thus meeting that aspect of his militia duty ... I seem to recall this coming up on one of the GOA Live Fire shows (I think it was the 2-17 show which can be heard at http://soundwaves2000.com/livefire/).


What if the second is applied to the states via the 14th?
I don't think it would make any difference ... my position is not based up on the Second Amendment, it is based upon the idea that the feds have enumerated powers and none of them include a power to require registration of all firearms ... more of a Tenth Amendment issue. In contrast, the States have broad/general/unenumerable powers, so even though Virginia already has an amendment such as the Second Amendment, and even if the Second Amendment was incorporated, I do not see that it prevents/precludes registration at the State level.

If the Second Amendment was incorporated, such that it bound the States, then I suppose we get into the quagmire of having the federal government tell us exactly how it (they) must bind the States, and they might say that it doesn't allow registration or they might say that it requires registration ... but that takes us away from the idea of militia to protect free States and into the idea of the US forcing arbitrary government upon us.
 
In a way, immigrants in WA State are dealing with registration already. In WA State I have to acquire a firearms license via the Department of Licensing, and each time I purchase a firearm via a FFL my A# from my green card is recorded on the 4473 along with the firearms serial number IIRC...

So my firearms are tied to my A#... they are registered somewhere.

Now I'm no scholar of the US Constitution, but to me doesn't that seem like an infringement of the 14th Equal Protection Clause?
 
"In tonight's news, the widespread earthquake, measuring 5.2 on the Richter Scale, has amazingly been reported to have multiple epicenters situated around the burial sites of Samuel Adams, George Mason, Patrick Henry, William Symmes, Richard Henry Lee, Tench Coxe and many others involved in the founding of America.
Witnesses in various locations have all stated the similar description 'it sounded like something rolling underground'.
Next up...Why is history increasingly forgotten?"

:rolleyes:
 
Okay... time to separate Wheat <---> Chaff

Rights vs. registration;
If you have to register to exercise a right, it is not a right.

Not true. You have to register to vote.

Why couldn't we require registration of journalists, bloggers, etc.?
Because Congress is not charged with a duty to manage the press or media and thus does not have explict powers to do so. Congress does have an explicit duty to organize, arm and discipline the militia, however.

Restrictions of Rights:
The government may impose reasonable restrictions on the time, place, or manner of keeping or bearing arms, provided the restrictions are narrowly tailored serve a compelling governmental or societal interest.

This is strict scrutiny. Limitations on a right must be narrowly tailored to serve a compelling governmental or societal interest, which generally means that the limitation has to be shown as the LEAST intrusive method of limitation. In most cases, it requires some overt action to be limited -- like yelling "Fire" in a crowded theatre, or inciting people to lynch a prisoner.

Thus, we get limitations on rights for compelling reasons;
  • Felons - have shown by serious crimes they don't obey our most important laws.
  • Minors - recognizes that mental processes of children are not sufficiently developed to comprehend legalities, ethics and the seriousness of their actions.
  • Mental paitents - recognizes that ajudicated mental paitents do not comprehend legal, moral or ethical matters and/or follow laws, presenting a danger to the public and/or themselves.
Each of the above meets a simple test that is easily determinable. Is the person a felon? Are they a minor? Have they been declared mentally impaired? In the "yelling fire" example the question is "does a fire really exist?" and if not, the speech is not protected.

Why does this not mean that, potentially, the whole Second Amendment couldn't be suspended "in the interest of society?"

The right cannot be suspended or abolished without an amendment. Declaring the right void to all citizens would be to discard the amendment process which exists as a large hurdle in making sweeping changes.

Fees & Taxes:
What would be the difference between registration (assuming the law allows collecting an 'administrative fee') and a poll tax? And was the poll tax ever actually ruled to be unconstitutional?

There would be no difference between an "administrative fee" imposed on any right and a "poll tax". Poll taxes were ruled unconstitutional around the turn of the century IIRC.

Requiring registration is probably constutional, but requiring even a nickle fee is not. I'd even go so far as to say that requiring you to pay postage to mail your forms would be unconstitional.

Amendment X: If it ain't in the preceeding, the feds CANNOT do it. Trust me, registration of firearms isn't in there.

Not quite. Congress is authorized to make laws, rules and regulations to carry out its duties under the constitution. One of their duties is To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress; (USC, Article I, Section 8)

Thus Congress can make laws and regulations pursuant to this duty. As part of their "arming" duties, it's quite possible that Congress would require information on the types of arms in the hands of the militia in order to make decisions about training, organization and the types of ammunition needed for training or deployment.
 
Registration Form

This is my concept of a constitutional registration form.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: ____/____/____ Purchaser's Postal Code [__________]

Manufacturer: __________________________
Model ID: ______________________________
Cartridge: _______________________

Type of Arm: (check one)
Long guns:
[ ] Rifle, Bolt action ...[ ] Shotgun, Single shot or Double
[ ] Rifle, Semi-automatic [ ] Shotgun, Semi-automatic
[ ] Rifle, Lever action ..[ ] Shotgun, Pump action
[ ] Rifle, Pump action ...[ ] Shotgun, Other
[ ] Rifle, Other

Handguns:
[ ]Pistol...[ ]Revolver...[ ]Single shot...[ ]Other

Black Powder Muzzle Loaders:
[ ] Rifle .[ ]Shotgun [ ]Cannon
[ ] Musket [ ]Handgun [ ]Mortar

Machine Guns: (Check all that apply)
[ ]Magazine fed [ ]Belt Fed [ ]Linked [ ]Linkless
[ ]Hand held ...[ ]Tripod ..[ ]Vehicle mount

Sold By: _________________________ (retailer)
__________________________________ (address)
__________________________________ (address)
__________________________________ (City, State, Zip)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
I hate to be the devil's advocate here, but...


If, by choosing to bear arms, we are all becoming part of the "militia" (the unorganized militia, if you will....)

....then the power to discipline the militia is explicitly given to Congress (Art. I Sec. 8 para. 14-15)....

Section 8. The Congress shall have power...

... To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;


...and similar powers are impliedly given to the several states both in those areas where Congress has not chosen to exercise its disciplinary powers; and if Congress HAS so exercised those powers, the several States may exercise authority in accordance with the rules set down by Congress. (Art. I Sec. 8 AND Amend. X):

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

I see absolutely nothing unreasonable with the idea of weapons registration being compatible with the above-referenced powers granted to Congress and the several States by the U.S. Constitution. Indeed, I can easily see an argument being made that, in order to effectively organize, arm, and discipline the militia, it is necessary to have an adequate accounting of the firearms available to the militia.

Therefore, nothing is inherently unconstitutional about firearm registration. (Assuming that we're talking about registration alone.)



THIS IS NOT, however, to say that in the current political climate, gun registration should not be opposed. Far from it.

And I would hasten to remind everyone of two points:

Just because something is Constitutional doesn't make it wise.

Just because something is legal doesn't make it the 'right thing to do'.



EDIT: Sorry, BillCA -- didn't see you'd already more or less made these points. Guess I have to be faster next time.
 
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hrmmm...

I don't think national federal gun registration legislation will fly in Congress at this time.

If this legislation was passed it would have to be for a reason simply besides gathering information on who owns what and where they live. They could say that it would be to keep felons and those who are mentally ill from getting guns. However, we have a NICS that does that and the FFL has records of who purchased what that are available to the BATF to inspect. So that reason wouldn't fly.

The only argument that would have a chance of making it would be if the information was for militia purposes to keep track of the available citizens and weapons for militia duty. If the government could stockpile ammo for issue to those called to militia duty and for operational planning purposes. However, the data should be limited to that specific use or it might not pass muster. As far as restricting a person from buying a firearm if they don't register it with the militia database that would mean it violated the second amendment and is unconstitutional. So even this has problems because some folks who buy firearms might be exempt form militia duty because of age and disabilities. The bait for it would be if the legislation offered those who did register on the militia database to receive ammo which includes a basic load and enough rounds for qualification purposes through some agency like CMP. Any legislation that requires national gun registration for federal purposes would have to be very specific in it purpose nd intent to meet court scrutiny imo.
 
Okay, there seems to be some confusion here:
You have a right to free speech and assembly but need a permit to gather a demonstration in a city.
You do NOT have an absolute "right to free speech". Read 1A again: "Congress shall make no law......", therefore there is nothing contradicting the First by needing a permit in a city.

What if the second is applied to the states via the 14th
The Second already applied to the states. When the authors meant people, they used people", when they meant Congress, they used "Congress", and when they meant state, they used "state". The 2nd has NO qualifiers on whom shall not infringe on the people's right to keep and bar arms.

Clear now?

Now, that being said, there is probably nothing restricting local entities (not the Fed, stopped by 10A) from having some kind of registration, good idea or not.
 
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