If law permitted CCW on Airlines with a 8 hour training course would you do it?

If federal laws allowed CCW on aircraft with a class of instruction would you do it?

  • No - Guns and planes dont mix

    Votes: 57 26.4%

  • Maybe depending on the hassle involved

    Votes: 34 15.7%

  • Yes but certification would have to be frequent for max safety

    Votes: 31 14.4%

  • Yes but only if certification was good for at least 3-5 years

    Votes: 94 43.5%
  • Total voters
    216
  • Poll closed .
The last flight that I was on, I observed three individuals trying to take over the airplane with verbal belligerence...During the ensuing battle of wits, myself, along with several like-minded passengers, attempted to subdue the would-be hi-jinxers with a nonlexical approach. After that failed, we began a barrage of yo-momma's followed by a quick succession of potential epitaphs in an alternating colloquial dialect...The ensuing bewilderment not only squelched the uprising, it nearly silenced all of our critiques...

All six of us came out nearly unscathed. All except for Bubba. He caught a bit of shrapnel in his leg from an errant f-bomb, or two...

To be completely honest, I'm rather surprised that the TSA hasn't instituted a mandatory gag order for all subsequent flights...
 
Right.

How about telling us what percentage of domestic flights within the US actually have air marshals on board.

Hint: It ain't 100 percent. It fact, it's not even close.
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Can't tell ya the percentage. Don't know.
I can tell ya I'd feel safer if it was 100 percent.

I can also tell ya, I'd feel safer in the confined,restricted quarters of a plane if I knew the only persons on board that were armed had extensive training in dealing with hijacking scenarios. That that was their sole job.

Sitting in a plane, lined up like cordwood with the possiblity of someone cutting loose down the isle with a 9mm FMJ isn't something I think I'd enjoy....and yes, since there are those that cc guns with FMJ, it could very possibly happen.

I can think of more negative scenario's than positive ones to cc on comercial airlines. So, I still vote no.

YMMV.
 
FAR 25.841(a) says 8000 ft for normal operation. Most modern commercial airplanes will have a cabin differential no greater than 8.6 psid. No bullet hole is going to cause a cabin depressurization. We are allowed to carry on a loaded subway in concrete tube why not an airplane?
 
With quarters being as close as they are, I could visualize mass casualties of innocent passengers very quickly.
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The last thing I recall reading on the topic indicated that if a plane is hijacked and the flight crew is either under coercion or incapacitated, current standard operating procedure is to shoot the plane down to prevent it from being used as a flying bomb that could kill thousands.

EVERYONE on the plane dies. Sorta puts things in perspective.

The downsides of armed passengers pale in comparison to the outcome of a successful hijacking. (Successful in terms of the hijackers actually being able to take control of the airplane.)
 
It's just not a good idea to have a bunch of people armed to the teeth inside an airplane. What's to keep the terrorists from infiltrating a few sleepers into this country, acting like good citizens for a few years, and then getting guns and shooting up a plane?
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Exactly.

Besides, you can already carry on airplanes... just not on commercial airliners.
 
Passenger 57; FAMs in real events...

To answer the forum questions about the real # of FAMs on US flights, I'd say an educated guess is around 5-10% of all US airline flights.
That # may be even lower. :(
The FAMS(Air Marshals Service) is not well funded, well run or able to meet staffing or hiring needs. Many sworn trained FAMs quit or get seperated after 2-3 years. I've seen & heard of media reports that documented the FAMS's serious problems.
There have also been a few lethal force incidents too. While doing a security contract job in south Florida in late 2005, I heard of 2 FAMs who smoke-checked a unstable man who claimed to have a bomb in the Miami airport.
Now, I'm not saying that everyone with a CWP or license needs to play Passenger 57 but to allow screened/trained passengers to act as FAMs sometimes may help cover those gaps.

ClydeFrog
ps; If you never saw Passenger 57, check it out. It's a older film(1992) but a decent action film www.IMDb.com
 
Agree JohnKSa .... you could also say that if the hijackers are rigged with explosives that the hijackers can touch off if they come under fire then everyone on the plane dies also.
 
I voted no.

The first time, Someone on the airplane see's something wrong and pulls a firearm.............

Its going to be like a Benny Hill chase scene, on a plane, except with live ammo.
 
FAMs: P2000 .40 & P229R .357sig

I meant to add that to my understanding, FAMs are issued the SIG Sauer P229R .357sig with Speer Gold Dot 125gr JHPs.
I think they use the same SIG DA/SA(decocker) format the US Secret Service uses. I'd also heard they field tested a few "exotic" loads like Glasers & Extreme Shock USA Air Freedom rounds but these frangibles lacked the desired results. :(

If I were a "sky marshal" or FAM, I'd want a S&W model 296(the 642/442 type snub hammerless in .44spl) with a CT lasergrip or maybe a P229R DAK in .357sig. The DHS issue HK P2000 .40 LEM could work too with a sub-compact P2000sk as a second gun. The HK mags could be used in either pistol. :)
 
Ya know, I boarded a plane in Dutch Harbor, AK once full of fisherman who just wanted to get home. Each one wore a crab knife or gutting knife on their hip. Anybody who messed with the scheduled travel of that flight was going to look like a seamstress's pin cushion within seconds. I never felt safer.

I think if you took the time to do the training, you would not have a lot of buckaroo cowboys shooting at anything that hiccupped. Especially if you were concealed, then who'd know from which direction anything would come?

I voted yes, with a certification course.
 
ClydeFrog said:
To answer the forum questions about the real # of FAMs on US flights, I'd say an educated guess is around 5-10% of all US airline flights.
That # may be even lower.
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I knew it was a low percentage of flights, but even I didn't know it was THAT low.

Sorta makes all the notions of "the Air Marshals will save us" comments rather meaningless, doesn't it?
 
If all federal and state laws were changed to allow CCW/CHL holders could carry on board national flights would you take such a course and carry on planes?
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since civilian ccw's will never be able to do this, i'm not sure about the point of discussing it. :confused:


i believe airline pilots are allowed to, if they take required classes.
 
I voted no.

Even though you guys have a Constitutional right to carry weapons and a firearms culture that involves both knowledge and responsibility (which I both envy, to be honest), there have to be certain limits. Personal rights come to an end wherever someone else's rights begin, that was one of the first things Dad tought me, and that before rights, there are responsibilities. With this in mind, I think another person's right to life is before someone else's right to carry a firearm. It takes months of training, and a lot of shooting and practice for tactical response-swat-air marshals or whateverwecallit people to get proficient in how to adequately respond to an emergency inside an aircraft. I don't think any kind of "qualification course" will make the average civilian equally proficient than a properly trained professional, who, besides, uses the appropiate type of ammunition.

You wanna travel with your handgun with you?. Fair enough, Sir. Please drop it in its case and hand it over to the aircrew for safekeeping. You'll be able to retrieve it on destination, and leave the counter-terrorism thing for the guys who have trained for it.
 
I had 40 yrs of pilot flying experience when I retired, including 30 with the airlines. Re-read Mleake's comments regarding aircraft systems and components (tires and landing gear, hydraulics, oxygen systems, fuel tanks, with their feed lines not to mention the THE PILOTS etc.) then think about your last visit to the range and the number of yahoos that you encountered. Think about the gov'ts ability to train and certify LEO's, think about the number of reported false identies floating around and the relative ease with which they can be procured. And then have them all traveling on the airlines, with their gov't certified CCW's, with your wife and kids in the next row...if that doesn't scare the daylights out of you...you've got a bolt loose somewhere.

Arm the pilots, bolt the cockpit door, and profile and search where necessary, every passenger and piece of luggage (as they do on El Al) and you'll stop hi-jacking. If we as gun owners and CCW holders travel with weapons, let's pack them in checked baggage...we don't need mall ninjas "helping" out in the cabin at 35,000 feet.

Rod
 
Much as I like guns, I think guns and planes don't mix. Especially ones that carry lots of people.

Great shot as I am, I'm just as likely to hit someone else or puncture the air seal on a plane as I am to hit the perp.

I'd sooner just wait for a hijackers to walk by, then pounce on him and twist his head off.

I think this is a moot point. Since the events of 9/11/2001, the ability of Americans to be cowed by hijackers on planes is much reduced. I think any time they try it again, they will be pounced on by everyone, and would be lucky to survive long enough to be take into custody.
 
I think another person's right to life is before someone else's right to carry a firearm.
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So in this case there must be no reason to ever carry a weapon for self-defense because you might kill the BG while attempting to stop the lethal attack on yourself or your family?

An airliner shot of out the sky might be a lot bigger price to pay than the truly horrible loss of a couple of innocent lives. (I am not making fun but text doesnt convey tone)
 
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I am for CCW but NO to CCW in airlines. Let the Air Marshalls handle it.

I am thinking about Super Tactical Joe causing a hole in the plane at high altitude - Will "Sorry" be enough to plug the hole.
 
WISE words, Rodfac. I couldn't agree more.

Have a question for you, though. I am an active LEO who every once in a while has to travel for duty reasons, and obviously I carry my duty pistol (92FS in my case) with me. The procedure in my country is as follows; we check-in at the counter and produce a document we may call "duty order" (stating we are on duty assignment and travel for that reason) together with our badge. Then get a red stamp on our boarding card, and when boarding, a steward/ess will lead us to the cockpit where we report to the Captain. He is, then, the final authority, of course, and has the right to keep the magazines/ammunition with him (NOT the pistol). However, this seldom happens (just once to me), since there's a mutual professional trust, and most Captains just ask us to make sure the weapon is not "hot" and to keep the magazine out of the pistol and an empty chamber. The fact that this one Captain asked for my magazines had to do, IMO, with the fact that this particular guy wasn't an ex-(Spanish) Air Force guy:p. Question is, how is it done in the States in the event you get LEOs flying in domestic flights with their weapon on them?. Is there any difference regarding that they'd be on duty or travelling on their own for vacation, for example?. My curiosity arose when you mentioned you used to be a pilot ;).

I ask this because for us here, travelling with firearms on duty is permitted (with the formalities above mentioned) but, off-duty, the Captain can refuse that you travel with your firearm, and you wouln't be able to board. When travelling on vacation, if we do want to travel with firearms, we have to check them in inside our luggage.

@ BGutzman: I'm not a native English speaker, and even though I speak something similar to English :D, in this case, I haven't explained myself well, I guess. What I mean is that the right to travel safely, therefore, right to life, should be above anyone else's right to carry a firearm. Nothing to do with that you mentioned ;).
 
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There's a lot of FUD in this thread. Don't believe anything anyone says about security, procedures, marshals, or LEOs, because all of that information is sensitive and they are either stupid for revealing it, or they don't know what they're talking about.

The whole question about support for a law allowing CCW carry on an airliner is moot too because the captain has final authority, and most probably won't let you. I know I wouldn't (and I'm pro gun). It doesn't matter what the law allows you to do, the captain can deny you.
 
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