If Having More Gun Laws Works, Why Do We Hear of So Much Gun Crime in California??

In fact, if you look at all crimes of violence you will see that Alaska, Delaware, Florida, Louisiana, Maryland, Nevada, New Mexico, South Carolina, Tennessee, and, of course, the most dangerous place on earth, with more deaths per hundred thousand than Iraq is, you guessed it, Washington D.C., all have higher incidence of crimes of violence than relatively quiet and safe California.

Well, you have cherry picked a bunch of states that do have higher violent crime rates than California. But I don't see how much relevance that has. There are naturally other factors that influence and cause violent crime. My argument was that if more gun control works, then California should be doing better than it is.

If you compare California's overall rate with a more comparable sized state with far, far less gun control, such as Texas, you will see that California does have a slightly higher rate, instead of being lower.

Here in Oregon where I live, the violent crime rate is almost half that of California. Despite the fact that our gun laws are among the most lax in the nation, with instant background checks with no waiting periods, shall issue concealed carry, and even allow for full auto machine gun ownership.

Now Oregon is also over 90% Caucasian. Can one then infer that white people are less violent than minorities? I don't think so. There is only so much that one can infer from statistics.

I simply found it to be most ironic that in a state where merely the ownership of an AK-47 is now illegal, a criminal was walking around with one stuck inside his pants.

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Laws against anything that 'the people' want only produce more criminals. Remember Prohibition? That didn't work out too well.
The 'War on Drugs'? About the same as Prohibition but much longer and continuing with small effect on the problem.
The same will be true with 'gun control' however you want to define it.

Unfortunately the human race has been killing it's own since one guy hit another with a rock over a leftover predator kill and it will continue even if the choice of weapons has to be manipulated.
 
Gun laws create RICHER crooks. They create over-priced guns, that give huge profit, inspiring criminals to bring them in, and sell them. With more money, they can then start branching out into other business. And, of course, it creates larger gangs, for the same reasons...

Same as alcohol created the Kennedy, and helped the mob, and, the illegal drugs have created super rich in mexico and columbia...

The real deal is Kali's gun laws are class warfare. You've got money, you get anything you want, just pay the state, and the Feds.
 
If Having More Gun Laws Works, Why Do We Hear of So Much Gun Crime in California??

The anti's argument would be that it is because there aren't enough gun laws.

We have been through this several times. There is no evidence that gun laws reduce crime or that CCW reduces crime.
 
I'm in Thomas Jefferson's Democratic party and I think I'm the only one left in the whole world. I'm one that thinks that everybody should be able to own fully automatic weapons JUST IN CASE some retarded country decides to invade *cough* Mexico *cough cough* I think it is not just a right to own guns, but a duty to own guns and tons of ammo. We the people are the militia that James Madison is talking about in the quote below. I think I am going to start my own political party. :p Time to revive the Federalist party of George Washington!!! :D:D

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve to encourage rather than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
-- Thomas Jefferson (D)

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
-- Thomas Jefferson (D)

"No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson (D)

"The right of the people to keep and bear...arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country..."
-- James Madison (D)

"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence ... From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to insure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable . . . the very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that is good"
-- George Washington (Federalist)
 
There is no evidence that gun laws reduce crime

Certainly nothing compelling but it is easier to pass laws and feel good about it later.

Even though some other poster said that bad morals or really a lack of morals and bad values cause crime. Those are much harder to fix and require long term committments.

Most politicians need something to hang their hats on right now and changing moral culture and climate can take years.
 
I will tell you all one thing. I am one democrat you would vote for. Except I became a Federalist 5 minutes ago :P I really don't think gun issues are going to be at the top of the list for any of the presidential candidates. They are going to want to deal with the economy number 1, GET OSAMA BIN LADEN!!! number 2, getting off of foreign oil number 3, developing clean energy, so we stop destroying God's creation and so our grandkids have a pretty place to hunt and fish number 4 and I could go on and on and on. It would take 50 years before they get to the gun issues. When they do, democrats like Jim Webb, Mike Udall, Tim Johnson and other cowboy democrats will vote against any gun control measures. Hell I wish Bill Richardson would get his a$$ back in congress and I REALLY wish he would Obama would have picked Richardson as a running mate. I mean Jesus he was US ambassador to the UN (foreign policy experience) and Energy Secratary! (self explanatory) Oh and did I mention he has executive experience as governor of New Mexico!!! I'm just disgruntled with my party. BILL RICHARDSON FOR PRESIDENT!!
 
Now what's the point of having a hammer like that? It's only to intimidate and devastate. NO reasonable carpenter would need something like that hammer. It will only be used to obliterate our youth. Nails can be driven with more effective devices these days.

I actually was in a conversation with a Brit and he honestly suggested that "only chefs need a sharp tip" on kitchen knives, and that there's no reason they shouldn't be banned or heavily restricted to prevent stabbings.

Seriously.

This is what happens if you finally let the anti-gun crowd have everything they want, and crime doesn't go down.

I recommended he try cooking something other than macaroni and cheese. I wouldn't say I use the tip of my kitchen knives daily or anything, but there are several tasks I do fairly often that would be difficult to impossible without it. And besides that, there's the idiocy of proposing a ban on yet another weapon, when it's obviously that criminals will just use something else. Eventually somebody would find a way to kill somebody with a feather pillow if that's all you left them.

Do a real comparison, such as Oakland with Dallas or South Central LA with Houston

In any case, you'd probably want to just do a per-capita comparison if you really wanted the numbers to matter. And since we're talking about violent crime committed with guns, you'd probably want to include aggravated assaults and a few others in addition to homicide...no, not all will involve guns, but it would give you a pretty good idea and finding "gun crime" (I hate the term) data for an individual city is probably a pain. Whereas overall violent crime stats are readily available if you look around just a bit.
 
Quote:
There is no evidence that gun laws reduce crime

Certainly nothing compelling but it is easier to pass laws and feel good about it later.

Actually, the murder rate of Israel is extremely low. Everybody has guns there! Now I'm talking about murder, not terrorist attacks. Yea there are a lot of people dying in terrorist attacks in Israel but not murder. I had to look it up for my criminology class. It was compelling as $hit to me!
 
And meanwhile, there are a lot of murders in Mexico, yet their gun laws are very restrictive!

I'd say there's little to no correlation between gun laws and gun crime. It all has to do with the real causes of crime - not guns, but drugs, poverty, etc.
 
Guns and Crime have no correlation, the presence or absence of guns doesn't effect the crime rate.
 
Well, you have cherry picked a bunch of states that do have higher violent crime rates than California. But I don't see how much relevance that has. There are naturally other factors that influence and cause violent crime. My argument was that if more gun control works, then California should be doing better than it is.

If you compare California's overall rate with a more comparable sized state with far, far less gun control, such as Texas, you will see that California does have a slightly higher rate, instead of being lower.

Here in Oregon where I live, the violent crime rate is almost half that of California. Despite the fact that our gun laws are among the most lax in the nation, with instant background checks with no waiting periods, shall issue concealed carry, and even allow for full auto machine gun ownership.

Now Oregon is also over 90% Caucasian. Can one then infer that white people are less violent than minorities? I don't think so. There is only so much that one can infer from statistics.

I simply found it to be most ironic that in a state where merely the ownership of an AK-47 is now illegal, a criminal was walking around with one stuck inside his pants.

I lived in California for nearly 50 years and owned over 20 guns. If you want a gun in California, you can get one. The ability to own a gun has nothing to do with crime there. Any kind of gun can kill another, but if a small percentage of your population is capable of mass murder, you're still going to get more people in California capable of doing the same thing, as there are other factors coming into play here which would dramatically increase the possibilities.

California has a much higher urban population than Oregon. They have a higher indigent population, a higher population of addicts, a higher mentally ill population with a criminal propensity, a higher low income population, and higher non-gun crime rates such as car thefts. Much higher illegal population and more importantly a higher second generation population of low income hispanics more likely to belong to gangs in urban settings (while there are more illegals belonging to gangs today, the vast majority of hispanic gang members are US citizens, usually children of immigrants, legal and illegal).

Oregon's populatin is about 3.7 million. California's is roughly 10 times as much. Oregon has about 35 people per square mile, California has over 210. Natually, you will see more California murders in the media, just because of the shear number of the people there.

Many things cause more crime. Oregon has one large city, California has many of them. Rural residents will never commit as many crimes as urban ones.

One other thing most people don't seem to realize is that California, being more urban and probably anti-gun, will have more people not owning guns, who are afraid of them, even if they are available (and they are). Less gun ownership per capita means the thugs have an easier time commiting crime, but it's due more to the mindset of the urban resident than the ability to own a gun.

I'm afraid your premise is a bit simplistic.
 
It just seems to me that if gun control really worked that well in controlling criminals, that incidents like this should not be possible in California. Why isn't California safer than other states??

Because California isn't really trying to control crime. They're trying to ban guns and control their population. As a result the criminals operate with impunity. Criminals and tyranical govt have a symbiotic relationship, as one needs the other to exist.
 
Saab1911 said:
Do a real comparison, such as Oakland with Dallas or South Central LA with Houston.
What part of "cities of similar size" didn't you understand? :D:D

Oh, and, I used San Diego because that's where I live. Not Oakland or South Central LA. :)
 
Old Timer said:
What part of "cities of similar size" didn't you understand?

Oh, and, I used San Diego because that's where I live. Not Oakland or South Central LA.

What you're doing is sophistry. You must have learned that from JuanCarlos.
:rolleyes:

If you start with an incorrect premise, you can prove anything.

Cities of similar size do not have similar levels of crime. That was your
incorrect assumption. Just look at San Francisco and Oakland. Those
two cities are separated by a bridge, but Oakland has much more crime.

There are cities in Texas with a lot of crime, but at least in Texas law
abiding citizens can defend themselves.
 
Guns and Crime have no correlation, the presence or absence of guns doesn't effect the crime rate.

Strictly speaking, that is true. The trick is that banning guns doesn't reduce GUN crime. Meaning that there is no useful purpose to gun bans. The theory is that gun bans reduce GUN crime, not crime in general. In the real world we find that criminals don't obey the law (duh:eek:) so they continue to use guns they get illegally.
 
Sith Lord Peetza said:
Strictly speaking, that is true. The trick is that banning guns doesn't reduce GUN crime. Meaning that there is no useful purpose to gun bans. The theory is that gun bans reduce GUN crime, not crime in general. In the real world we find that criminals don't obey the law (duh) so they continue to use guns they get illegally.

Even if guns were legal, criminals would not walk into a gun store, show their
ID, submit to a background check and have the gun associated with them
forever more.

Even if guns are legal, perps buy guns illegally because illegal guns are
less traceable.

So, gun bans only affect law abiding citizens.
 
Even if guns are legal, perps buy guns illegally because illegal guns are
less traceable.

Exactly, and worse than that, the more difficult it is to get a legal gun and the more restrictions are on them, the more likely it becomes that a gun used in a crime will be illegal and untraceable. Here in NY every legal handgun is "fingerprinted" so the bullet is traceable if it's used in a crime. So we are always able to know who owns a gun used in a shooting.... right? Weeelllllll, no. Funny thing, the BG knows the legal guns are traceable too. Which, as stated above, makes for richer BG's because untraceable guns are worth more money.
 
So, we've pretty much proven to ourselves that gun control only makes
law abiding citizens more vulnerable and tips the scale in favor of criminals.

But let's say you can get rid of all guns. Countries that have done that
have found that crime does not stop when criminals don't have guns.

Is being stabbed to death so much preferable to being shot to death?

Is being run over by a car so much preferable to being shot to death?

Is being beaten to death so much preferable to being shot to death?

Are we going to then ban knives, cars and hands?

First, it's impossible to get guns out of criminals' hands not with our porous
borders and ports. Second, if guns are unobtainable crime will live on.
 
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