IDPA Guns

It looks legal to me, based on the published specs.
If the gun is stock, it's legal for both SSP and ESP divisions. Some modifications would take the gun out of SSP.
 
11 at the start normally, with mags at 10 thereafter.

You need the mag in the gun and two spares at least. Often people will have more in their bag as some of the standard drills have multiple reloads andit just saves time.
 
zincwarrior said:
11 at the start normally, with mags at 10 thereafter.

It's been several years since I last shot IDPA, but I always thought 11 at the the start was OK, too, but after rereading the rules, I wonder...

As noted above, the mag's capacity isn't the key constraint, as the "division capacity" specifies the maximum number of round that may be loaded into the gun. 15-round mags loaded to hold 10 rounds are OK.

Rules are sometime difficult to interpret and can be a little ambiguous.

I wonder if 11 is still OK? Here's what the 2015 rules (on the website) say:

  • 3.10 Firearms must start from the mechanical condition of readiness appropriate to their design and shooter’s division.
  • 3.11 Firearms and magazines must always be loaded to the shooter’s division capacity, unless otherwise specified by the stage description.

Rule 3.10 would seem to say starting with a loaded chamber is OK -- as that's the way most folks carry and the only way I've ever seen it done in IDPA matches.

Rule 3.11, however, says the firearm and magazines must always be loaded to the division capacity; if that is read as written, a loaded chamber and a 10-round mag would give you a firearm and magazine holding more than the division capacity.

Have we all gotten it wrong, over the years, is this just a subtle change in the rules, or just a point that nobody has bothered to clarify. The rule book doesn't seem to directly address this point.

(I was Safety Officer for several years, and we covered most of the basic technicalities in the SO Class. I don't remember this ever being addressed or contested.)
 
mags are loaded to division capacity, 10 for SSP, 8 for CDP and CCP. you also get one in the chamber.

for 1911s, they don't make 9 round mags, and 10 round mags won't fit in the box, so you load your chamber, swap mags (aka the Barney mag), and are ready.

most SSP guns have 13, 15, 17 round mags, so you don't have to swap mags at load and make ready. load one with 11, load it into your gun, and your spare will have 10.

18 round max for any stage, so you are good to go with 2 mags.
 
3.11 Firearms and magazines must always be loaded to the shooter’s division capacity, unless otherwise specified by the stage description.

If the mags will hold at least ten, you load ten (SSP, ESP) unless the stage description indicates fewer than that.
If the mags hold fewer than ten, you stoke them all with the same number of rounds, dictated by the mag that holds the fewest.
You must start with a round in the chamber unless, again, the stage procedure indicates an empty-chamber start.
With a round in the chamber, and mags loaded as above, the firearm and mags are loaded to capacity.
 
UOT

RickB said:
You must start with a round in the chamber unless, again, the stage procedure indicates an empty-chamber start.
With a round in the chamber, and mags loaded as above, the firearm and mags are loaded to capacity.

I understand, and that's the way I've always interpreted it, too, but...

With a round in the chamber and 10 rounds in the mag, the rule says "Firearms and magazines must always be loaded to the shooter’s division capacity..." If so, you aren't really complying with the requirements, as the firearm and magazine are loaded to 11 rounds... The max for SSP and ESP division capacity is 10 rounds...

Maybe this is just a long-time point understood by nearly everyone -- that's the folks in our local IDPA club always interpreted it -- and I was one of the officers of the club. That was the way we used to do it, too.

But -- unless I've overlooked a key rule (very possible) or simply can't read English -- that's NOT what the rules directly say (as indicated in the "bolded" section above.) Maybe there's another rule somewhere that explains this more completely, and I've just missed it?

It would seem that you start with a chambered round -- that round fed from the mag...
 
Read on, guys:

8.1.3 Division Capacity
8.1.3.1 SSP – 10 rounds
8.1.3.2 ESP – 10 rounds
8.1.3.3 CDP – 8 rounds
8.1.3.4 CCP – 8 rounds
8.1.3.5 REV – 6 rounds
8.1.3.6 BUG – 6 rounds total
8.1.3.7 NFC – 10 rounds
8.1.3.7 In SSP, ESP, CCP, and CDP, and semi-auto BUG the shooter will also start with one round in the chamber, unless the CoF description requires otherwise.

You are REQUIRED to start with the magazine loaded to division capacity AND one in the chamber (except in BUG, where you get 6 rounds total so the autos and 6 shooter revolvers are comparable.)
Yes, there can be 11 rounds in the magazine as you load the gun, but when the buzzer sounds, there are only 10 rounds IN THE MAGAZINE.
Note also, that if the CoF specifies the chamber to be empty at the ready or the gun completely unloaded at the ready, the magazine may not contain that extra round you would normally use to set up for a fully loaded start.
 
Jim Watson said:
You are REQUIRED to start with the magazine loaded to division capacity AND one in the chamber (except in BUG, where you get 6 rounds total so the autos and 6 shooter revolvers are comparable.)
Yes, there can be 11 rounds in the magazine as you load the gun, but when the buzzer sounds, there are only 10 rounds IN THE MAGAZINE.

If you START (i.e., insert a mag with 10 rounds) and then chamber a round, you have done what the rules require. That's 10 rounds, not 10 plus 1.

(Maybe I've missed something in the rule book and you can clarify it for me. It won't be the first time I missed something obvious.)

The "the shooter will also start with one round in the chamber" doesn't mean you must add another round, it just adds another condition to HOW you start -- with a round chambered -- arguably one of the 10 rounds being discussed.

The following is copied from the 2015 rule book:

8.1.3 Division Capacity
8.1.3.1 SSP – 10 rounds
8.1.3.2 ESP – 10 rounds
8.1.3.3 CDP – 8 rounds
8.1.3.4 CCP – 8 rounds
8.1.3.5 REV – 6 rounds
8.1.3.6 BUG – 6 rounds total
8.1.3.7 NFC – 10 rounds
8.1.3.7 In SSP, ESP, CCP, and CDP, and semi-auto BUG the shooter will also start with one round in the chamber, unless the CoF description requires otherwise.​

Earlier, it tells us:

3.11 Firearms and magazines must always be loaded to the shooter’s division capacity, unless otherwise specified by the stage description.​

Note: It does not say that a firearm with one in the chamber must also be loaded with mag loaded to division capacity! No. It says firearm and magazine must be loaded to division capacity.

Where does that 11th round magically come from? A loophole (or, perhaps, a fundamental ambiguity) in the rule book... But one we all seem to like. Perhaps it's a proper interpretation -- but I suspect its not one supported by the language used in the rule book.

It may be time to send off an email to info@idpa.com for guidance (or see if we can elicit a subtle clarification in an upcoming Tactical Journal, as in, "I know what it says, but what does it really mean?...")
 
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You said it right there: "It says firearm and magazine must be loaded to division capacity."

The magazine division capacity for, say, SSP is 10 and the magazine is to contain that many at the start of the stage.
The firearm capacity is a loaded magazine and one in the chamber, here 11 total.
If you load the chamber by racking the slide over a division capacity magazine, the magazine is no longer loaded to division capacity. PE.


I HAVE been shooting IDPA consistently for the past several (19) years and have not seen it interpreted otherwise under any edition of the rules after it was first made clear that the gun had to be loaded the same way all the time to prevent scheduling reloads.
 
Read on, guys:

Quote:
8.1.3 Division Capacity
8.1.3.1 SSP – 10 rounds
8.1.3.2 ESP – 10 rounds
8.1.3.3 CDP – 8 rounds
8.1.3.4 CCP – 8 rounds
8.1.3.5 REV – 6 rounds
8.1.3.6 BUG – 6 rounds total
8.1.3.7 NFC – 10 rounds
8.1.3.7 In SSP, ESP, CCP, and CDP, and semi-auto BUG the shooter will also start with one round in the chamber, unless the CoF description requires otherwise.
You are REQUIRED to start with the magazine loaded to division capacity AND one in the chamber (except in BUG, where you get 6 rounds total so the autos and 6 shooter revolvers are comparable.)
Yes, there can be 11 rounds in the magazine as you load the gun, but when the buzzer sounds, there are only 10 rounds IN THE MAGAZINE.
Note also, that if the CoF specifies the chamber to be empty at the ready or the gun completely unloaded at the ready, the magazine may not contain that extra round you would normally use to set up for a fully loaded start.

Exactly. Sorry if I started some confusion here. I was focused more on the number of mags one needs to compete.
 
Jim Watson said:
I HAVE been shooting IDPA consistently for the past several (19) years and have not seen it interpreted otherwise under any edition of the rules after it was first made clear that the gun had to be loaded the same way all the time to prevent scheduling reloads.

I understand.

I shot IDPA for a number of years, starting back in the late 1990s, and on up until maybe 2007... I went to Safety Officer class, designed courses of fire for our club, and shot a lot. Then as I neared retirement I decided to go back to school. That tied up my spare time for several years. I'm not a complete newby on this subject, either.

I also spent a number of my working years as a technical writer, so I know (sadly) that anyone can write stuff that's understood, but it's very hard to write anything so that it can't be misunderstood...

As I said, I've always interpreted it the way, you do. But what the rules clearly say -- and they don't say it all that clearly -- and how most of us have interpreted may be at odds with the practice all of us have adopted. If (as stated in rule 3.11) the "firearms and magazines" must be loaded to "division capacity", that's 10 rounds, not 11. If only the magazine must be loaded to division capacity, that other round found it's way into the chamber through a loophole.

I suspect what's intended may be exactly as you describe it, but that's NOT what the rule book says; that IS how how most of us have interpreted it. I suspect a slight additional explanation or revision in the rule book is probably in order to make what is common practice UNQUESTIONABLY LEGAL.

I think I'll see what IDPA says.
 
OK.
Who knows, you might start a ripple through the organization that will make every club I have ever shot at, right up through the Nationals, change their LAMR to 10 only. But I am betting it will stay 10+1.
 
firearms and magazines" must be loaded to "division capacity", that's 10 rounds, not 11.

The capacity of the chamber is one, and the capacity of the mag is ten, so fully loaded, you have eleven. You must have ten in the mag, so if the "gun" is loaded and the mag is loaded, it's eleven.
The tiger teams could have used a good technical writer when they rewrote the book for 2015, but I don't think 3.11 was a rule about which there was any contention.
 
Jim Watson said:
Who knows, you might start a ripple through the organization that will make every club I have ever shot at, right up through the Nationals, change their LAMR to 10 only. But I am betting it will stay 10+1.

What I suspect it'll do -- if anything -- is simply get a minor change or clarification made to the Rule book and a note in the next Tactical Journal. That change would be due to some obtuse idiot's question about what the rules really MEAN, to wit: that you CAN load the chamber and use "division capacity" in the mag -- and not, as the rule says in 3.11 "division capacity" in "firearm and mag." :p

If you use 10-round mags, as I often did, starting with 10 rather than 11 makes topping off the mag a bit more time-consuming...

P.S.: I have sent an email to IDPA, and if I get a reply -- it sometimes takes a while -- I'll share it here.
 
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I followed up as I said I would. Here's the reply from IDPA to the gist of the discussion about DIVISION CAPACITY.

HI Walt,

There are several rules that govern this issue that have to be met.

8.1.2.1 All magazines must be loaded to division capacity at the start signal throughout the match except in the following cases:
8.1.2.2 If a magazine is used that holds less than division capacity, the shooter will load all magazines to the capacity of the lowest magazine throughout the match.
8.1.2.3 The CoF description may require reduced magazine loading.
8.1.2.4 In the Revolver division the shooter must load the revolver and all loading devices with the same number of rounds throughout the match unless the above loading exceptions apply.
8.1.3.7 In SSP, ESP, CCP, and CDP, and semi-auto BUG the shooter will also start with one round in the chamber, unless the CoF description requires otherwise.

Let’s use SSP as example. Rule 8.1.2.1 states that the mag has to be loaded to division capacity at the start signal. That would be the beep, not the load and make ready command. So just before the beep the mag must be at 10 unless the CoF dictates otherwise per 3.11. Rule 3.11.1 even goes so far as to point to See section 8.1.2. for complete magazine loading details.

Rule 8.1.3.7 says that the gun must start with one in the chamber at the start. Therefore, to start a stage for SSP, the competitor must have 10 in the magazine and 1 in the chamber.

I hope that this helps clear this up.

Robert Ray
International Defensive Pistol Association
2232 County Road 719
Berryville, AR 72616
robert@idpa.com
(w)870-545-3886
(f)870-545-3894
(cell)870-350-1885​

That's the official word. I accept it. I also note that what he describes is what nearly all of us have always done. I won't argue with that interpretation of the rules, for as I said, I expect that was what was always intended. That said, however, the interpretation cited above ignores Rule 3.1.1 which states the gun and magazine must be loaded to DIVISION CAPACITY. In SSP, for example, 10+1 is NOT "Division Capacity." Had the rule book said "round in chamber and mag loaded to Division Capacity" I would have not picked that particular nit.

It is interesting to note that the BUG division starts with one in the chamber but one less in the mag -- with any other mags loaded to division capacity. I wonder why they did it that way for BUG but not in any other division, as you know anybody actually using a BUG would almost certainly have a round chambered and a FULL mag in their BUG.
 
It doesn't say "gun and mag must be loaded to division mag capacity", which is how you seem to be interpreting it?
If the mag is loaded to capacity (10), and gun is loaded to capacity (1), you have complied with the rules.
If you cycle a round out of the mag into the chamber, the mag will have only nine in it, when you are required to have ten.
I'm not seeing room for the alternate interpretation?
 
Typo in my comments above. I wrote 3.1.1, it should've been 3.11. See the example below, directly from the Rule Book -- but with my emphasis added:

3.11 Firearms and magazines must always be loaded to the shooter’s division capacity, unless otherwise specified by the stage description.
3.11.1 Firearms and magazines manufactured such that they cannot be loaded to the division capacity may still be used as long as they are loaded to their maximum capacity and meet all other criteria for that division. See section 8.1.2. for complete magazine loading details.​

Division Capacity in SSP is 10 rounds. Starting per rules in SSP, as IDPA tells us in the reply above, is 10 + 1.

Had the rule book (3.11) not said "Firearms and magazines must always be loaded to the shooter's division capacity", I would have not raised the question.

As I noted in my prior response, they were much clearer about how to start with the BUG rules... there they specify one in the chamber, and one less in the mag. They are starting with the shooter's division capacity.
 
This wouldn't have even been the smallest of problems if people would apply the 'reasonable man' test instead of the 'it's gotta be a trick question' test.

If you had a firearm that had a 10-round magazine (and that's the way they are all 'equalized' to give everyone a level playing field) how would you load your pistol? Full magazine and one in the chamber, right?
Or, would you load the chamber and walk around with a magazine loaded to less than capacity?
 
Division Capacity in SSP is 10 rounds. Starting per rules in SSP, as IDPA tells us in the reply above, is 10 + 1.

Division magazine capacity is ten.
All mags must have ten rounds in them when the buzzer goes off.
If the buzzer goes off with ten in the mag and no round in the chamber, your firearm is not loaded to capacity.
If the buzzer goes off with nine in the mag and one in the chamber, your mag is not loaded to capacity.
The only way to comply is to have one in the chamber and ten in the mag.
 
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