Ideal Assault rifle cartridge.

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We are still talking "assault" rifles here right? So I don't think any intermediate cartridge is gonna solve the afganistan conundrum. When someone mentions battle rifles and machine guns then it gets mentioned that its not easy to hump these items around. But then we turn around and say we need a longer range cartridge and the circle comes around again.

I respect all my fellow vets past and present.

This thread is going nowhere.
 
Going nowhere? That's OK; let's keep it in the present.

So, let's start over. Intermediate cartridge; assault rifle cartridge; infantry rifle.

Question 1: Is an "assault rifle," as the term commonly used, the best infantry rifle at the moment? Obviously both the AR-15 and variants and the AK-series are what we're talking about. But don't focus on how good or bad those particular weapons are but just the fact that they use what has come to be called an intermediate cartridge.

Question 2: Are the two most widely used infantry weapon cartridges, the 5.56 NATO and the 7.62x39 (as well as the 5.45x39, while we're at it) good enough for the purpose under discussion or is there room for significant improvement without either changing entire weapons systems or having a cartridge that is no longer an intermediate cartridge that nullifies the (arguable) advantages of weapons built around said cartridges.

Condition 1: Any infantry rifle and cartridge used today will be used along side sniper rifles, machine guns and heavy weapons.

Condition 2: Present and future infantrymen will have no more physical abilities than they have already.

There; get to work.
 
there room for significant improvement without either changing entire weapons systems

Yes there is room for improvement, the Army agrees so they came out with the 77 Grn bullet for the the M16 that extends its range to 800+ meters, without unduly adding a burden to the infantryman.
 
I've been following this thread with interest right from the beginning. I don't have anything to add regarding ballistics or tactics or real world combat experience (can't hold a candle to some of the folks posting here).

But military history... that is a subject I can talk about. Has the US ever lost a major battle because the 5.56mm was not as good as some other cartridge? Answer No.

In modern warfare, we might win or loose engagements on the capabilities of our aircraft, our satellite intelligence, our subs, ships, missiles, UAVs, tanks, etc... but not on the basis of the cartridge used in our infantry rifle. The most important factor in winning or loosing an engagement is the strategy and tactics employed by both sides.
 
Well, why not? It, the 7.62 NATO certain saw its share of action around the world in various rifles, yet it was mostly replaced by the 5.56. In fact, I understand the Australians in Vietnam used both the SLR and the AR-15 in the same squads. The British were still using it when they went to the Falklands some 30 years ago--against an enemy that also used it.

Why do you suppose anyone made a switch?
 
Has the US ever lost a major battle because the 5.56mm was not as good as some other cartridge? Answer No

You sire are 100% correct. Even times where weather prevented Air Support and it was Rifleman against Rifleman, the American soldier prevailed.

Odd you should mention this. This month marks the 39th anniversity of the end the Vietnam war. The Paris Peace Accords were signed because the NVA was thourghly defeated in the field. The Accord kept the Communist in the North and the RVN in the South.

It was two years later that the NV knew we had lost to will to fight and again invaded South Vietnam. Lack of support cause the RVN to fall.

It wasn't the AK, NVA with AKs were no match for American soldiers with M16s.

We will only loose because of our lack fo willingness to presue a victory, not because of our inferior 223/5.56.

The M16 and its varents with the 223 will be with us for a long time. It proved its worth as a combat round. We've found better bullets which extened its capabilities over the M193 we used in Vietnam.
 
The BETTER news is that the GIRL on the Coast Guard Cutter moored next to the landing craft
you are on opens up with a 25mm chain gun and obliterates the sniper's position along with
the entire story of the building the sniper was firing from.

She's barely 20, cute and visits you at Bethesda Medical.


But I'm going to ask you one question, ...and one question only.

Have you been to Afghanistan?

Better question... What happened Here >>>> "She's barely 20, cute and visits you at Bethesda Medical."
 
Our old systems (the ones us old guys used/trained on like the M14) had iron sights w/ 7-MOA front sight blades on them. We trained on and were expected to hit pop-up targets at 300-350 yards during qualifications -which we generally did -although with varying degrees of success.

When we did fail from the rifle pits, the failures in those days centered around:

1. Targets were hard to discern (or even pick up from first emergence) as they appeared at those ranges

2. That 7-MOA sight blade spanned 25 inches at 350 yards, grossly over-shadowing the silhouette target's width at that range

3. We were battle-zero'd to where we had to hold at the top of that 350 yard silhouette -and thereby lost completely it as often as not because of 1 & 2 above

4. Range guestimates were just that, with little/absolutely zero ability to adjust sights to compensate during qualifications (or most flare-up firefights for that matter).

The introduction of the M16 (in my time) didn't change any of that. But no one really noticed because engagements tended to be shorter-range anyway, and everyone was too busy complaining that M16's reliability totally sucked.

We fixed the black rifle's reliability through a combination of weapon design, individual maintenance equipment, preventive maintenance, and training to the point of cartoons with sexy broads doing the instructing. But we never had to really address the effective range issue because, ... (well), it was never an issue... until now.

Things change. Now range ~ an issue --and we have band-aidecl/jury-rigged any number of things to try and make the issue go away -including some very good things like ACOGs w/ 4x magnification, finer sighting reticules, and auto-rangefinder/ballistic drop compensators. But is has left us with a basic problem we didn't have with the 30 calibers: effective terminal ballistics at range.

We've got the rifles that now function reliably, are relatively lightweight & compact, and are imminently controllable in a firefight --AND the no-brainer optics that will double their effective range for the average infantryman -whatever that effective range was in my time and after.

We just need to finish up the solution process with a matching cartridge that takes advantage of everything else we've done, and for as little change in possible to weapon system (including receiver) design, weight, dimensions and effect on the shooter.

We owe it to the shooters after now a half century.


Has the US ever lost a major battle because the 5.56mm was not as good as some other cartridge? Answer No
You sir are 100% correct. Even times where weather prevented Air Support and it was Rifleman against Rifleman, the American soldier prevailed.
"L'audace, l'audace, toujours l'audace!"

And with that, I am so reminded of this bitter exchange 37 years ago:

"You know, you never defeated us on the battlefield," said Harry Summers. To which Colonel Tu replied in a phrase that perfectly captured American misunderstanding, "That may be so, but it is also irrelevant."

I have to ask myself, how many body bags have we brought home -- even though we "[n]ever lost a major battle because the 5.56mm was not as good as some other cartridge..."?

Only an answer from the Ops Analyst would take the tact that cartridge change "...wouldn't have been worth the money."
 
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I have to ask myself, how many body bags have we brought home -- even though we "[n]ever lost a major battle because the 5.56mm was not as good as some other cartridge..."?

In Vietnam I believe the numbers were somewhere around 58,000 US troops and 2 million enemy dead. That is pretty substantial numbers. We "lost" Vietnam because 1. Vietnam eventually turned communist (2years after we pulled out) and 2. The American public did not want a war, especially after the events of the Tet Offensive were twisted in the media.

The 5.56 gets the job done. So the Taliban starts engagements at 400m, is that because they know the ballistics of our weapons or because they know that at closer ranges they do not have a chance because of our training. Marines qualify every year at 500yds so to say that 400m is too far the 5.56 is garbage. There is also a reason why most enemy fire is considered harassing fire, because it is not accurate and are random shots hoping to get lucky with a hit. There is also a reason why in Iraq and Afghanastan they turned to IEDs because they can not compete with our equipment and training
 
The army teaches just the basic skills. The entire time I was in the army, it was up to each soldier to improve himself beyond the minimum. Honestly though, if you could do well in pt and not become a little chubby...all was good in the world. No one gave a crap if you could shoot. The real marksmen got a badge that was a tiny bit cooler than the others. I have witnessed people that couldn't qualify every year.

It's not the army's fault, every soldier was given the basic knowledge.

Throw a big ole 30 cal in a soldiers hand, and more than half will complain. The rest will develop a flinch.
 
Marines qualify every year at 500yds so to say that 400m is too far the 5.56 is garbage.

I'll ignore the technical evaluation term "garbage" and once again ask: Been to Afghanistan lately?
(I truly am getting tired of asking that question.)

The ability to potentially actually hit something using modern optics/rangefinders at
distance is not so much in question today (I've already said that.) It is nice to have
fixed ranges ** -- and some here do question it even then)

The issue is that the 5.56* at 500 yards is down under 400 ft-lbs. (For reference, that's pretty
much 38 Special; and the M14 using the preferred 175gr/M118LRs is four times that.)

We can do (and need to do) waaaay better than that for a main battle rifle after 50 years.
And the "..well, it's good enuf..." mantra is an unneeded apologia.


* 62-63 grain

** "A known-distance range with the capability to fire 5.56mm ball ammunition from 200, 300, and 500 yards is required."
http://www.marines.mil/news/publications/Documents/MCO 3574.2K.pdf page 4-1
There is an 'unknown' range qualification as well -- which I applaud.
 
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Afghanistan no, Iraq Yes. Out west in a city that was surrounded by nothing but desert and plateaus, so I know a little something about engaging at open distances that they are facing in Afghanistan.

Truth is that a bullet is not going to be able hit a target on its own and to be able to run and gun and hit your target while you and they are moving is EXTREMELY difficult. Having a bigger bullet will not increase the probability of a hit, hence why harassing fire is just that, harassment, not combat effective.

Yes a .30 will hit with more power but if you can't hit with it then it's useless. With your train of thought every soldier should have a .50 cal assault rifle because it has more range and will hit with more power.

I will not volunteer to be shot by a .38sp ever, if you are willing to take a .38sp to the chest and say it was nothing you have way bigger hang downs than I do
 
With your train of thought every soldier should have a .50 cal assault rifle ...
ONLY if that "X" cal assault rifle weighs the same as the M4 does now, fits the same physical dimensions/profile; uses the same magazine weight/dimensions; results in the same discernible recoil; whose muzzle energy is 180% of the 5.56; whose remaining energy at 500 yards is approximately three times that of the 5.56; and whose ammunition is limited to an increase in weight of only the bullet itself.

Then... we are in violent agreement. :rolleyes:
 
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Again some one needs to study a ballistic chart.

The ball ammo for the M14 M80 ball drops 10.40 inches at 350 yds. when sighted in at 250 yards

The M16 M193 Ball drops 8.74 inches at 350 yds when zerod at 250 yards.

The main factor for the infantryman is the M80 weights 12.74 lbs per hunderd where the M913 weights 2.61 lbs per 100.

That allows the soldier to carry almost 5 times (4.88) as much ammo.

The basic load I carried was 460 rounds. If I was packing M80, for the same weight I'd only be able to carry about 95 rounds.

Maybe the wight difference wouldn't matter if you had a truck packing your ammo, but that isnt the way we worked. We were dropped in (chopper) and would stay in the field 30-60 days on the average. We got re-supplied about once a week.

12 lbs of ammo don't sound like much until you consider that we also packed (on the average) 5 quarts of water, claymore, LAWs, spare 60 ammo, 7 days rations, radio battires.............I could go on but you get the point.

Regardless, with a BSZ of 250 yards the M193 is flatter shooting then the M80.
Now ask yourself (be honest) if you were to be engaged in a firefight that last all night (and chances are slim you'll get resupplied until day light),

Another advantage of the 5.56 over the 7.62 is that it's easier for the average soldier to shoot the M16 then it is the M14.

Do you want 460 rounds or 100 rounds? Plus the weight difference between the two rifles.

To give one a better ideal of field conditions: The average infantryman in the South Pacific spent 100 days in combat in 4 years. In Vietnam, the average infantryman spent 270 days in 1 year.

Weight matters.
 
we're not talking the comparison between 7.62NATO and 5.56. Never have been. (At least I haven't.)

Read the post immediately above yours (#136) for the restrictions on changes.
 
Here's where I come from:

The 6.5G data is chrono'd from my 14.5" barrel at 52,000 psi
The 224 is from the "best" Quickload estimate for the same at 55,000 psi
If someone has some actual chrono data for the latter at that barrel length, I'll run it.
(I'll also run 6.8SPC if desired. Both it and Grendel are vast improvements over the 5.56.)
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Ok so we are talkin intermediate cartridges.....none exist that have any demonstrable advantage over 5.56 in my opinion.

Capt Stuart seems to be the foremost subject matter expert in my book.

Its already been stated that afgan vets don't wanna lug heavy weapons through the mountains.
 
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