Ideal 7.62 / .308 rifle?

J

Jeff Thomas

New member
After an AR, I'd like to add a larger caliber to handle those jobs a .223 is not suited for - long range work, deer / antelope / bear hunting, etc. My focus at this time is on a rifle that is very durable, very accurate, very adaptable - an excellent tool for the job. I don't mind spending a bit to get the right rifle, but I don't want to spend extra just to be one of the few 'kids on my block' to have a Brand X, cosmic rifle.

Read the posts on the 'Ideal Sniper Rifle', and toured http://snipercountry.com/ . And, I've tried to read most of the other TFL posts that seem to bear on this debate. What I get out of all of this is that the 7.62 NATO / .308 is an excellent, all-around cartridge. Adaptable and reliable - plentiful ammunition is another criterion.

It appears most of the positive comments / suggestions are for variations of the Rem 700. I note the Springfield M1A seems suited as well, although I don't think it was even mentioned in the 'Sniper' thread - low tech?

After an AR, is a 7.62 NATO / .308 a good choice for a second (or third, after .22 rimfire ;) ) rifle? Good for hunting larger game, as I believe? And, does choosing between the Rem 700 and M1A boil it down to the two best 'tools'? How do you suggest I choose? (I rent handguns to test them before I buy, generally, but this appears difficult or impossible with rifles)

Thanks, and regards from AZ.


[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited February 24, 1999).]
 
An M1A would be the more versatile choice, in my view.
They can be "massaged" to provide very good accuracy (better than an FAL, which is my personal favorite). Certainly adequate for hunting, and a better defense weapon, as well.

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"If you send your jack-booted, baby-burning bushwackers to confiscate
my guns, pack them a lunch...It will be a damned long day."
-Harry Thomas, NRA board member.
 
The M1A is attractive to me because of the heritage, accuracy and magazine capacity (I recognize the limitations for hunting).

OTOH, after I started this thread I've been surfing the web, and I now realize that Springfield Arms is apparently not the Springfield it used to be. I'm in AZ, so I'll call Smith Enterprises tomorrow to check with them about their M1A work.

Having said all of that, it will be interesting to see the different opinions. I note over and over again the fine reputation of the Rem 700 series. Savage seems to be a contender as well.

Harry, thanks.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited February 25, 1999).]
 
Jeff,
Your AR will handle most defensive problems, I think you are on the right track thinking about a Bolt next. .308 will handle anything in the lower 48 even Grizzly (not a good choice but it will do it). I prefer the savage but the Remington is also a Great Choice.
 
If you have $100 and want a tough, accurate, battle proven rifle that will handle most any situation you can throw at it buy an Enfield. While the current crop of Ishapores are ok and are chambered in .308 the #4 Mk1 or 2 (or a #5 Jungle Carbine) chambered in .303 Brit. are the way to go. Ghost ring battle sight, click adjustable aperature sight for precision/distance work, 10 round detatchable box magazine which can be fed by stripper clips, a medium weight free floated barrel, short, fast bolt throw. I could go on and on. 303 ammo is still plentiful and fairly cheap. You can buy a lot of ammo with the mney you save by not buying a commercial hunting rifle.
 
Jaeger has some good points on Enfields. My safe holds a NoI MkIII*, No4 and a No5 "Jungle Carbine" (not the non-original No7 "Jungle Carbine"). I love shooting the No5 but does it kick!
 
Check out Styer's scout rifle. It was designed from the ground up to be the all around rifle you are asking about. It is pretty pricey, but I haven't heard any regrets yet about the quality. You can read up on it at Eric Chins web site. (sorry I forget the address). Hope this helps.

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keep your options open &
never miss!
 
I got mine as an heirloom from my father, so its seen some use. Definitely one of my favorite rifles. I can shoot about 1 1/2" with it(iron sights) off a bench. Digests any type of ammo I throw at it with no problems, except for CAVIM. I recently mounted a scope on it, and blowing up 2 liter bottles of soda at 250 yards is little more than boring. I definitely recomend this gun.
 
The Steyr Scout surely is a dynamite rifle, but at $2,600 I think it is a little over the top for me right now. The detachable mag and light weight are real pluses, and the mag storage inside the stock is a slick touch.

Went to a Crossroads gun show today (biggest one we have all year), and had a chance to handle a few of these rifles. I am impressed (in a negative way) with how heavy the M-14 / M1A seems. I understand you can get a 'tanker' version that is lighter / shorter. I imagine this rifle gives you a fair workout when a loaded 20 round mag is mounted. Still, there is something about this rifle that fascinates me.

The Rem 700 is much lighter, and seems much easier to handle and bring on target quickly. I'm considering all of the variations - they have a ton. The VSSF is an impressive piece of work.

Tomorrow I'll go back to Crossroads and look for the Savage and Winchester (especially the 70) rifles.

Seems like there is still some debate about the accuracy of semi-auto vs. bolt action. I gather that bolt actions were historically always more accurate, but that modern semi's now match their performance. However, the Marines do use bolt action sniper rifles I note.

Also trying to decide between 30-06 and .308 - had quite a few friends / folks encourage me to consider the 30-06 more carefully. I want to study how these rounds compare.

Thanks for all the ideas and help. Regards from AZ.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited February 27, 1999).]
 
Regarding the 30-06 vs .308 issue- I found this article at www.snipercountry.com and it sums up my feelings pretty well.

Accuracy Facts -- .308 Winchester versus .30-06 Springfield

Seems to me that any time there's more metal contacting the bullet, the greater [the] chance that more variables come into play. Besides, folks who shoot highpower rifles the most accurate[ly] have very little case neck tension on the bullet anyway.

It's really easier to have uniform case neck tension by having it light in the first place; neck length doesn't come into play when this is how it's done. And ammo that's been handloaded [which is] then let set for several weeks or months will have a greater release force needed with long necks because of dissimilar materials bonding between bullet jacket and case neck/fouling. There's more area to bond when longer necks are used.

All that aside, lets go back to when the .30-06 and .308 were the only cartridges allowed in NRA match rifle matches. Both cartridges were used in barrels of equal quality as well as the same action and stocks by several top shooters in the USA. Both cartridges were used in matches at ranges from 100 through 1000 yards. Many thousands of rounds were fired in both types. Bullets from 168 through 200 grains were used with several powder, case and primer combinations.

In comparing accuracy between the .308 and .30-06, folks who used each quickly agreed on one thing: .308s were two to three times more accurate than the .30-06. In the early 1960s, it was also observed that competitors with lower classifications using .308s were getting higher scores than higher classified folks using .30-06s; at all ranges. By the middle to late 1960s, all the top highpower shooters and virtually all the rest had switched to the .308. The Highpower Committee had received so many complaints of ties not being able to be broke between shooters using the .308 and shooting all their shots in the tie-breaking V-ring, something had to be done to resolve this issue. In 1966, the NRA cut in half the target scoring ring dimensions.

At the peak of the .30-06's use as a competition cartridge, the most accurate rifles using it would shoot groups at 200 yards of about 2 inches, at 300 of about 3 inches. The 600-yard groups were 6 to 7 inches and at 1000 yards about 16 inches. As the high-scoring ring in targets was 3 inches at 200 and 300 yards, 12 inches at 600 and 20 inches at 1000, the top scores fired would have 90+ percent of the shots inside this V-ring.

Along came the 7.62mm NATO and its commercial version; the .308 Winchester. In the best rifles, 200 yard groups were about 3/4ths inch, at 300 about 1-1/2 inch. At 600 yards, groups were about 2-1/2 inch and at 1000 about 7 to 8 inches. It was not very long before the .30-06 round no longer won matches nor set any records; all it's records were broken by the .308 by a considerable margin. Some accuracy tests at 600 yards with the .308 produced test groups in the 1 to 2 inch range. These were 20 to 40 shot groups. No .30-06 has ever come close to shooting that well.

At 1000 yards, where both the .30-06 and .308 were allowed in Palma matches, the .308 was the clear-cut most accurate of the two. If top shooters felt the .30-06 was a more accurate round, they would have used it - they didn't. In fact by the early 1970s, the scoring ring dimensions on the 800 - 1000 yard target were also cut in about half due to the accuracy of both the .308 Win. over the .30-06 and the .30-.338 over the .300 H&H when used in long range matches.

Most top highpower shooters feel the main reason the .308 is much more accurate than the .30-06 is its shorter, fatter case promotes more uniform and gentle push on the bullet due to a higher loading density (less air space) and a more easily uniformly ignitable powder charge.

Military arsenals who produced match and service ammo in both 7.62mm and 30 caliber have fired thousands of test rounds/groups with both. They also found out that with both ammo types, the smallest groups were with the 7.62 by about 50 to 60 percent. M1 rifles in 7.62 shot about twice as small of groups as .30 M1s at all ranges. When the M14 was first used, there were some .30-06 M1 rifles that would shoot more accurately. It took the service teams several years to perfect the methods of making M14s shoot well, but when they did, they shot as good as M1s in 7.62.
There will always be folks who claim the .30-06 is a more accurate cartridge. All I have to say to them is to properly test .308 vs. .30-06 and find out.
Theory is nice to think about; facts determine the truth.

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"Whoso would be a man must be a nonconformist."
-Thoreau
 
About 10 years ago, a large number of '98 Mausers from South American arsenals were imported and sold for between $75-$200.00 depending on condition and source. I bought about a dozen, primarily for the unsupassed actions, but was pleasantly surprized to find that most were in excellent condition, some even had matching numbers, and pristine bores. (7 X 57, 30.06, 8mm)
Springfield Armory took some of these actions, blued them, rebarreled (23")them in .308 and sold them for $200. I bought one and wish I had bought a lot more. To me this is about the finest all round rifle that I have (among more than 30) It's fast, accurate, handy, fairly indestructable, easy to maintain and at that price, I don't mind taking it out often, knocking about the Sonoran desert popping off Jacks and Coyotes. I have often thought that this was the poor man's SCOUT rifle, and although I can afford a Steyr, the good old Mauser more than suits me just fine.

Also, there's something about a bolt action that encourages discipline and good marksman ship.

I doubt you'll find a Springfield convertable around, (maybe at gun shows) but there are plenty of Mauser '98 actions around and any competent gunsmith can barrel it for you. That's the route I would take.
 
As far as an all around rifle goes, it is really hard to beat the .308 as a caliber choice, but I am also fond of the 30-06.
Since I hunt dangerous game, I want all of my rifles to perform flawlessly while feeding and extracting cases, fired or unfired.
With this in mind, we must realize that there is a huge difference in what will be expected from a rifle in the field hunting dangerous game, as opposed to what is desirable in a benchrest target rifle.

Now, lets talk actions.
I personally have no use for the Remington 700 family, as they have crummy extractors, and failure prone ejectors. Sure, there are tons of accessories available for them, but no amount of accessories will cure their inherent design flaws.
I have seen a number of 700s go FUBAR in the field due to their ejectors getting jammed into the bolt face, and /or their extractors getting blown out. This locks up the bolt in the closed position, and renders the rifle a fence post until it can be hammered open and repaired.
Sako actions suffer the same failings, but to a slightly lesser degree, due to their better extractor design.
Very hot weather is a major cause of these failures, due to the increase in ammunition impulse.
They are also very finnicky about dirt.

The 98 Mauser is a great starting point, due to it's claw extractor, and fixed ejector. These features allow controled feed of the cartridge, and VERY positive extraction and ejection.
There are a variety of great aftermarket triggers for these, and a slew of other nice accessories.

The P14/P17 Enfield has all of these qualities, as well as being the strongest commercial/military action built, but suffers from a cock on close design.
This can be remedied by the addition of a cock on open setup, available through Brownells. This improves lock time, and trigger pull. These are very heavy actions, and are best suited for large caliber dangerous game rifles.
I must confess a personal weakness for the 03-A3 Springfields, which have all of the desirable functional features, and a much better esthetic than the p14/17. My favorite personal rifles are all Springfields, in 30-06.

My current favorite off the shelf .308 is the Winchester Model 70 (pre64 type) Classic, especially in the Featherweight Stainless configuration.
The blued versions with wood stocks are beautiful as well, and all are VERY accurate.
These have a nice adjustable trigger, a claw extractor, a fixed ejector, hammer forged barrels, and come in a variety of calibers.
They are a little longer in the action than the short 700 Rem, but MUCH more reliable.
This makes an great starting platform from which to construct the ideal rifle.

I add a 3.5-10X Leupold Vari-X III with 50mm adjustable objective lens., express sights with tritium dot, and a sling swivel setup that will allow the use of a three position sling and a bipod at the same time.
I duplex bed the barreled action, free float the barrel, and trim the barrel length back to about 20".
This will vary a bit from rifle to rifle, but I have found that I can usually tune the accuracy by shaving the barrel length to optimize the vibrational dynamics.
Using QD mounts for the scope, I can switch quickly to iron sights if need be, or mount a pre-zeroed Aimpoint Comp M in the forward position offering extended eye relief much like a "Scout" scope setup.
I have yet to build up one of these in .308 that shot larger than .5" groups at 100 yards with good ammo. I also like to keep the bullet weight in the original design criteria of 150 grains or less.

I am currently making one of these up for a fellow that is going to Africa(lucky bastard) in the near future to hunt plains game with it. He is a member of these forums, so he will be able to discuss the rifle with you if he feels like divulging himself.
 
MAD DOG: The Featherweight you describe sounds awfully close to the new M-70 Compact. It has (I believe, a slimmer stock) 12 1/2 inch LOP and a 20 inch barrel; it weighs 6 1/2 pounds and is available in .308, short action.
 
I like both the .308 and prefer a M14 type firearm or a Rem. 700 heavy barrel. As for 30-06, like it for the Garand, 1903A3 Springfield, Rem. 700 BDL and in a few months time, if Bland Firearms does offer it, a M1 Garand which is modified to accept a 20 round BAR magazine.
 
I have the 1909 (modelo 1934) Argentine Mauser carbine - brand new before having it re-stocked and generally 'sporterized' - they are of course, easily available in this country as they were issue until replaced by the FAL and many were still in their packing crates when they were decomissioned. Although tempted to rebarrel to 7.62 / 308 i've kept it in 7.65 argentine - its a good round, slightly hotter than the 308 - though the only factory ammo is Norma and expensive (our 'Fabricaciones Militares' may produce it again). I reload for it. I dont hunt much, but my pardners that do (a lot) agree that it could be a 'poor man's Scout'. Drooled over the Steyr at a show... the only consolation against its huge price (all guns cost us double here) was that Col. Jeff Cooper wasn't about to call it perfect (if he didn't say so i want to belive he did :) )

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Member NRA (life), SASS (life 'El Chimango Pete' #20037), Muzzle Loaders, other clubs in Argentina. Firearms Instructor
On ICQ "Buzzard-Pete"




[This message has been edited by Elchimango (edited March 01, 1999).]
 
This thread is helping me a great deal - thank you very much. gunguy, that article is exactly the kind of comparison I was looking for regarding the two rounds - somehow missed it in my travels.

I'll need to spend some more time studying my 'Standard Catalog of Firearms', the 'Gun Guide', and the internet for many of the other ideas.

Saw that Springfield M1A / M-14 again yesterday, and it is one beautiful rifle. I'm usually a very analytical buyer, but this rifle is somehow different. I may have to get it just based upon 'heart', and make another purchase later, more based upon 'mind'!

Thanks again, and regards from AZ

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited March 02, 1999).]
 
I too tend to favor the Winchester over anything that Ruger or Remington puts out based on personal experiences. I have a '66 M70 heavy barrel in 243 with a 2 oz 2 stage Canjar trigger that simply is amazing still with the original factory barrel. It wears a B&L Elite 4000 6-24X and is deadly on praire poodles. Picked it up used and absolutely will not part with it.

For 308, don't discount Savage and their new short action rifles. See my thread about my first shooting session with a 10FP. You simply can't beat it for the money and Savage has an enviable reputation for out-of-the-box accuracy. For those that distain the stock and trigger, there are many stocks out there to upgrade to and the relatively new Matchmaster after market trigger is supurb at around $85. You're still ahead of the game. There are no excuses.

-=[Bob]=-
 
I saw a Finnish (1942) Sako Mosin-Nagant (full length) that must have been made from the Imperial-era octagonal receiver. It had open sights, more adjustable than those on the carbines. Inspite of the heft, it was easy to hold steady (where as I can't even point the mini14 easily), go figure. They was $120 for it, where carbines for for $60-90-110 for Chinese-Polish-Russian. The store would cut the stock and add a recoil pad for me for another $15-20.

Questions:

1) How bad is the recoil for the full-size rifle? How does it compare to a 20ga bolt shotgun of slightly lesser weight firing a slug?

2)How would one go about scoping it? Open sights are not my favorite...do standard bases and rings fit it without gunsmithing?

3) Anything to look out for, caveats, anecdotes from experience?

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If you believe in freedom and means of protecting it...you might be a gun nut.
http://ddb.com/RKBA
 
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