Wethepeople01
New member
Beautiful M&P Compact!
I want to really like the S&W M&P series, BUT..
- Thread starter Wethepeople01
- Start date
Roland Thunder
New member
I also want to love the M&P platform but I don't want to put the Apex trigger kit on it because I want to use it for home defense. If you ever have to use it in self defense and you end up in court, the lawyers will figure out that you had the trigger worked on, they will try to make you look trigger happy (there may be some truth to that, but in a different way). It it was a range gun, different story, but not a self defense gun. I have a Colt 1911 Government Model with a 3# trigger for range activities.
I had an M&P45c with the Apex kit on it a couple of years ago but sold it to buy the Colt. Now I am tempted to buy another one but I just can't bring myself to do it until the trigger improves.
I had an M&P45c with the Apex kit on it a couple of years ago but sold it to buy the Colt. Now I am tempted to buy another one but I just can't bring myself to do it until the trigger improves.
Omaha-BeenGlockin
New member
Have had a few examples of the M&P----I also could never warm up to that awful trigger---so they're now gone.
Actually prefer the trigger on my SD40VE----its a little heavier but doesn't have the annoying "hitch" at the end of the pull that the M&P does.
Actually prefer the trigger on my SD40VE----its a little heavier but doesn't have the annoying "hitch" at the end of the pull that the M&P does.
Improving the trigger on a self-defense pistol is done to aid the shooter in being more accurate. That's making the gun safer to shoot. The only time it would be a true liability is going for something like a 3# trigger.
Changing the sear and striker block in an M&P45 brings the trigger to a safe and enjoyable 4.5# or so. To have fears that you will be demonized in court over that are unfounded in my view. If you are involved in a justified shooting, it is a justified shooting. But you make your own decisions on what to do.
Changing the sear and striker block in an M&P45 brings the trigger to a safe and enjoyable 4.5# or so. To have fears that you will be demonized in court over that are unfounded in my view. If you are involved in a justified shooting, it is a justified shooting. But you make your own decisions on what to do.
To me this is a bit of a contradiction. It's okay to modify the trigger to 4.5 lb., but not okay to modify it to 3 lb.? So where's the magical turning point between modification that's okay and too much modification?
The shooter is the biggest factor in handgun accuracy. Heavier, longer, and/or stiffer triggers take more effort and more time to master but it can still be done (if we forget, for a time DA revolvers were the norm). To be honest when I see people saying that a stock M&P trigger, often between 6 and 7 lb., is too heavy to be "accurate" and something like a 4.5 lb. trigger is needed then I wonder if that person is being realistic about using pistols for self defense. The often quoted statistic is 3 shots at 3 yards and in 3 sec. To me that can be done with a 6-7 lb. trigger just as it can a 4.5 lb. trigger.
Now can a 4.5 lb. trigger be shot better? Well sure. It will involve less effort to press and can make holding a sight picture throughout the press easier (though I will point out that the travel on most safe action pistols is actually fairly short and there are some great tools to increase grip, hand, and finger strength). For that matter a 3 lb. trigger is easier than a 4.5 lb. trigger, so why not go lighter? There's a balance point for most of us and most companies and it varies.
Do I personally think that's really going to make a difference in a life or death situation? I honestly don't. As someone that's done force on force, which I know isn't nearly as stressful as the real thing, I can tell you in all seriousness that I have no memory of the trigger weight, shape, etc. at all. I remember the target and my sight picture, and many times I only was able to point shoot because of space limitations.
While I agree, you'll likely still end up in civil court even if criminal charges are dismissed. At that point you may have to answer why you felt it was necessary to change the weight of the trigger pull in your pistol. Your argument seems to be that it makes the pistol "safer". That would seem to imply you think the factory configuration is unsafe or not safe enough. If so, why would you buy an unsafe pistol? For that matter do you think you know safety better than the manufacturer? Now I know why you did what you did and it isn't a problem for me, but your words can get twisted and not every jury member will be a shooter.
Now it may well be that no one will notice you changed the weight and if you truly believe that modifying the pistol from factory configuration makes the difference between you living and dying, then do what you have to (though I might ask you if there was another factory pistol that might work better for you). For me personally the difference in my shooting from 5.5 lb. to 4.5 lb. or 3.5 lb. is not enough to make the potential of a hassle worth it.
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My M&P45C had an 8# trigger. I can shoot it much better now and more accurately with a 4.5 to 4.75# trigger. I'm perfectly content with that move for a defense gun. It is far from a "hair" trigger. Down to 3# is dramatically lighter and I would feel that unsafe on a defense pistol.
My M&P40 and M&P40C have very nice triggers, even nicer now with some use, and didn't need modification.
I'm not stressing over making any improvements to how well and accurately I can shoot my pistols and I can and would make that case to any jury.
My M&P40 and M&P40C have very nice triggers, even nicer now with some use, and didn't need modification.
I'm not stressing over making any improvements to how well and accurately I can shoot my pistols and I can and would make that case to any jury.
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marine6680
New member
I have heard some recommend keeping the trigger within factory specs.
Someone posted that they attended the armorer course and that factory spec is 7lb +/-2lb.
If that is accurate, then a defense lawyer could easily argue that any trigger not bellow the minimum factory spec, should be good to go.
Now, the Pro model has a lower spec, with is 4-5.5lb according to the website.
The Pro also starts with a better trigger feel from the factory, making it a good place to start.
A simple replacement trigger, that does not change the other parts, would likely not be an issue at all.
A polish of the existing parts without altering their dimensions is also not likely to be an issue in court.
So taking a stock FS or Pro and giving the parts a polish, and replacing the trigger (if you dislike the hinged stock version) should net you a trigger pull that is smoother and lighter than out of the box, while easily remaining within the factory specs.
The minimum change in parts is also in your favor... Though, from reading lawyer opinions online, many agree that a gun that stays within spec should not be an issue even if you change some internal parts.
Adding slogans or images that can be construed as presenting a state of mind... Could be a liability. So no skulls or slogans about death... And even a slogan about justice/truth can be twisted, so I would keep a defensive firearm looking close to stock myself.
Someone posted that they attended the armorer course and that factory spec is 7lb +/-2lb.
If that is accurate, then a defense lawyer could easily argue that any trigger not bellow the minimum factory spec, should be good to go.
Now, the Pro model has a lower spec, with is 4-5.5lb according to the website.
The Pro also starts with a better trigger feel from the factory, making it a good place to start.
A simple replacement trigger, that does not change the other parts, would likely not be an issue at all.
A polish of the existing parts without altering their dimensions is also not likely to be an issue in court.
So taking a stock FS or Pro and giving the parts a polish, and replacing the trigger (if you dislike the hinged stock version) should net you a trigger pull that is smoother and lighter than out of the box, while easily remaining within the factory specs.
The minimum change in parts is also in your favor... Though, from reading lawyer opinions online, many agree that a gun that stays within spec should not be an issue even if you change some internal parts.
Adding slogans or images that can be construed as presenting a state of mind... Could be a liability. So no skulls or slogans about death... And even a slogan about justice/truth can be twisted, so I would keep a defensive firearm looking close to stock myself.
I can understand that, but that's more about what you like out of a trigger personally than the potential ramifications of modification. My question is more if modification itself a problem, or does it have to be modification to a certain extent? Anyone that modifies his/her pistol always has a level he/she won't go below and I find that interesting as the ranges that are acceptable to different people often vary.
I tend to fall in the opinion of marine and believe that as long as you don't move the trigger weight outside of the range of factory specs than you're okay, but that's not really based in a specific court example. I notice that many companies now market aftermarket trigger modifications with "Defense" or such in the name to allay some concerns, but I wonder if APEX for example would actually testify on a client's behalf (though I imagine who did the install comes into play).
I still hold to my opinion that people tend to modify their pistols unnecessarily.
As I said above that's your call.
Agreed, though I'd point out the Pro line is advertised for "competition" and I wonder if that could potentially be used against you. Again you get into the realm of will someone notice and how far will a lawyer go.
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marine6680
New member
I don't think it is only advertised as a competition gun, unless it's a stock class.
I also believe at least one agency uses the Pro as their issue weapon.
Here is a quote from the site...
Bridging the gap between main production and the Performance Center, the Smith & Wesson Pro Series represents the next step up from standard production line models. These firearms offer a variety of enhancements yet still remain true to “stock”. Bringing competition specifications and features in factory models, the Pro Series offers that ready-to-go package while still maintaining production line integrity.
Boiled down, that is saying the Pro line is an enhanced performance version of their basic line, designed to maintain the safety of the regular model but with improvements.
And remember... They are actively marketing some of their Performance Center pistols for defense use.
I also believe at least one agency uses the Pro as their issue weapon.
Here is a quote from the site...
Bridging the gap between main production and the Performance Center, the Smith & Wesson Pro Series represents the next step up from standard production line models. These firearms offer a variety of enhancements yet still remain true to “stock”. Bringing competition specifications and features in factory models, the Pro Series offers that ready-to-go package while still maintaining production line integrity.
Boiled down, that is saying the Pro line is an enhanced performance version of their basic line, designed to maintain the safety of the regular model but with improvements.
And remember... They are actively marketing some of their Performance Center pistols for defense use.
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marine6680,
My shooting is mostly at 15 yards. Seems like you also what I see in terms of accuracy/consistency.
I have tried different backstraps (Large, Thinned Large, and medium) with no luck at 15 yards.
I have not given up on the pistol, yet.
My plan is to play with my ammo loads and do more supported shooting.
I like the ergo and how the pistol recoils - so I most likely will keep the pistol for teaching new shooters even if I do not improve my groups with it.
I do not want to change the trigger but tomorrow is a new day.
My shooting is mostly at 15 yards. Seems like you also what I see in terms of accuracy/consistency.
I have tried different backstraps (Large, Thinned Large, and medium) with no luck at 15 yards.
I have not given up on the pistol, yet.
My plan is to play with my ammo loads and do more supported shooting.
I like the ergo and how the pistol recoils - so I most likely will keep the pistol for teaching new shooters even if I do not improve my groups with it.
I do not want to change the trigger but tomorrow is a new day.
marine6680
New member
The only thing I have done to my carry pistols, an M&P compact and FS Pro... Is replace the hinged trigger, and polish up the trigger bar, sear and striker block.
Those simple things made for a very smooth pull and clean but pronounced break. The Pro is around 5.5lb and the compact is 6-6.5lb (need to check it again, it has been a while and can not remember the exact weight)
It really is a nice shooting pistol, it's not perfect, but I am happy with it, and doing a little work improved it a good deal for me.
And I can't get rid of it even if I wanted, my fiance bought me my first one as a Bday gift.
Those simple things made for a very smooth pull and clean but pronounced break. The Pro is around 5.5lb and the compact is 6-6.5lb (need to check it again, it has been a while and can not remember the exact weight)
It really is a nice shooting pistol, it's not perfect, but I am happy with it, and doing a little work improved it a good deal for me.
And I can't get rid of it even if I wanted, my fiance bought me my first one as a Bday gift.
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I want to really like the S&W M&P series, BUT..
For sure it can be used outside of that and the advertising does not say "only competition". My comment was merely that competition is certainly part of the marketing of those pistols and I'm not sure if that is something that could potentially be used against the shooter. Again, this is all hypothetical.
I really liked my P320s and would tend to agree. I like my Glocks a bit better overall but that's just preference.
That's part of my point as well. As I mentioned above there are so many companies making striker fired pistols now that there is likely one that you might find decent from the factory. Again if you want to modify that's your call, but there are some good factory options now.
For sure it can be used outside of that and the advertising does not say "only competition". My comment was merely that competition is certainly part of the marketing of those pistols and I'm not sure if that is something that could potentially be used against the shooter. Again, this is all hypothetical.
I really liked my P320s and would tend to agree. I like my Glocks a bit better overall but that's just preference.
That's part of my point as well. As I mentioned above there are so many companies making striker fired pistols now that there is likely one that you might find decent from the factory. Again if you want to modify that's your call, but there are some good factory options now.
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marine6680
New member
I would say... The fact that S&W markets the Pro as having multiple uses... Makes trying to claim "competition" as a non-starter.
If it was only marketed as a competition gun, then that may hold water.
For me, the way the M&P feels and shoots makes it worth the small amount of effort. I like those aspects more than many other pistols, so doing a little trigger work is not a problem.
But I also really like my VP9... But I got it after learning that the M&P trigger can easily be improved.
So, I am actually torn between them, as the VP9 feels better in my hand, and I like the controls more, but I think the M&P shoots better for me, and I prefer the trigger on it after its tweaked a bit.
The 320 is a fine pistol, and the trigger is good, but it doesn't float my boat as much as other pistols I own.
If it was only marketed as a competition gun, then that may hold water.
For me, the way the M&P feels and shoots makes it worth the small amount of effort. I like those aspects more than many other pistols, so doing a little trigger work is not a problem.
But I also really like my VP9... But I got it after learning that the M&P trigger can easily be improved.
So, I am actually torn between them, as the VP9 feels better in my hand, and I like the controls more, but I think the M&P shoots better for me, and I prefer the trigger on it after its tweaked a bit.
The 320 is a fine pistol, and the trigger is good, but it doesn't float my boat as much as other pistols I own.
Two reasons that I'd suggest, and neither of them may have any relevance for you.
No 1: because you like the M&P and because the trigger doesn't have much if anything to do with shooting the gun effectively for self defense or in hot situations, IMO. [This may not be relevant to you because you care more about the shooting you do 99.999% of time, which isn't under stress]
No 2: because 45 minutes with a diamond plate and a Dremel, and you can transform a crap M&P trigger into just about any weight and level of smoothness you want, and the step-by-step with photos is available online. [this may not be relevant to you because you don't care to modify a stock gun, don't feel you have the skills, or don't have the time or tools].
Should you have to buy an aftermarket trigger for a new gun. Probably not. Do you have to buy one to shoot well. I don't think so.
My opinion is that way too much importance is placed on how a trigger feels--I don't see it having a heck of a lot to do with shooting well. But it is nice to have a crisp trigger. I think it's easy to get the trigger you want with an M&P, pretty much impossible with certain other select polymer pistols no matter what you buy or do.
No 1: because you like the M&P and because the trigger doesn't have much if anything to do with shooting the gun effectively for self defense or in hot situations, IMO. [This may not be relevant to you because you care more about the shooting you do 99.999% of time, which isn't under stress]
No 2: because 45 minutes with a diamond plate and a Dremel, and you can transform a crap M&P trigger into just about any weight and level of smoothness you want, and the step-by-step with photos is available online. [this may not be relevant to you because you don't care to modify a stock gun, don't feel you have the skills, or don't have the time or tools].
Should you have to buy an aftermarket trigger for a new gun. Probably not. Do you have to buy one to shoot well. I don't think so.
My opinion is that way too much importance is placed on how a trigger feels--I don't see it having a heck of a lot to do with shooting well. But it is nice to have a crisp trigger. I think it's easy to get the trigger you want with an M&P, pretty much impossible with certain other select polymer pistols no matter what you buy or do.
The "fluff & buff" which is quite commonly done to Glocks, is also relatively easy to do on M&Ps.
All that is involved is polishing the contact areas involved in moving the striker block out of the way and releasing the striker.
This is accomplished with the polishing compound "Flitz", on a buffing drum, applied with a Dremel. The result is a noticeable improvement in trigger pull, without replacing any parts.
All that is involved is polishing the contact areas involved in moving the striker block out of the way and releasing the striker.
This is accomplished with the polishing compound "Flitz", on a buffing drum, applied with a Dremel. The result is a noticeable improvement in trigger pull, without replacing any parts.