I think I've had it wrong all these years

fiddletown, if only people realized how nice you are. As Mas told us, we always grow when we listen and try to put different techniques to our best use. That said, as a wrestling coach I guarantee there are certain muscle movements that will automatically come into play when the action gets hot and expereinced athletes and locked in combat. Being a pistolero is no different.
 
ZeSpectre,

I have a hard time agreeing with you on your version of acceptable self-defense/rapid fire target. Generally speaking, faster fire does induce larger patterns. But I believe that if I can't keep my shots in the vicinity of center mass or soft cavities, I have no business firing my gun at that rate. Some of those shots could very well glance off or easily pass through.

I'm sure if my life is in imminent danger of ending I wouldn't give a rats behind at the moment and will desperately do whatever it takes to stop the assailant. However, if I live through the confrontation I must be accountable for every shot fired...especially collateral damage.

I'm arguing with myself here and I know rule #4 of Cooper's gun safety....

Just curious, did you happen to pay attention to the distances? The rapid fire target was at 50 feet (16 yards).

If you can do better than a roughly 5 inch group, rapid fire (about 3 seconds total), through a magazine change, at 50 feet then you are a far better marksman than I'll ever be :D.
 
ZeSpectre said:
Just curious, did you happen to pay attention to the distances? The rapid fire target was at 50 feet (16 yards).

If you can do better than a roughly 5 inch group, rapid fire (about 3 seconds total), through a magazine change, at 50 feet then you are a far better marksman than I'll ever be .

I also think he failed to notice that your target was printed on a 8.5" x 11" piece of paper!!! Good shooting Z!
 
And any idiot who has studied 'point shooting/target focused' knows you have to bring the weapon to the same place everytime. Guess you never understood Lucky McDaniel or Applegate or Fairbrain or any of those people, do you david.
Apparently you haven't studied point shooting, deaf, because some of the point shooting disciplines will point out that you cannot always bring the gun to the same point. You might not be able to bring the gun to the same place every time. The repeatable index is only part of the discipline.
You said "ANY HITS" david. Guess you don't have stats do you?
Yes, deaf, I said any hits are likely to slow or stop the attack. And again, if you aren't aware of that or don't understand it you need to get off the range and start looking at the real world shootings.
Never heard of people taking 10, 15, 20 or more hits and still keep going have you?
Yes, I have. Unlike you I realize they are the rare exceptions to the rule, not the more common.
You have not one drop of research to back you up, right?
Actually, most of the research backs me up. You might want to try looking at if you are going to comment on it.
 
In reality, one won't necessarily be able to have the same stance. But whether you're taking cover or only using one arm, don't you still lift the gun up to your sightline?
Not necessarily. You might be shooting from a restricted position, you might not be able to lift the gun that high, etc.
 
stephen426 said:
Guys... (you know who you are)

Cut the petty arguements please. If someone does not agree with your position, you're not going to convince them... Especially by insulting them. No one has to offer proof to anyone and no one has to believe what anyone else is posting. If the posts makes sense to you... Great! If you disagree, state why and then move on. Are you egos so fragile that you have to be right all the time are have you taken on the "responsibility" to ensure there is no false information passed along on the Internet? I have seen plenty of good threads that could have benefitted many people get closed down for petty argueing such as this. If you feel compelled to make personal attacks or "lead someone out of their ignorance", please do it through pm's.

Rant off.

I wuz gonna say that. Really, I was! Thanks for saving me the time, trouble, and typing, Stephen. ;)
 
The repeatable index is only part of the discipline.

So you now admit the repeatable index IS part of point shooting. The index goes for any of the positions in point shooting. 1/4, 1/2, 3/4. All of them david. So is the body index. Have to have it or it don't work. David this isn't some Clint Eastwood spaghetti western stuff, you do know that?

So yes, target-focus has to have a repeatable index to work, just like sighted fire. I really don't think you know much about it but what's posted here and other boards david.
 
Deaf Smith,

What do you feel about firing from the hip? This is used when you are really close to your attacker. Basically you step back with your right foot (if you are right handed) and push the attacker away with your left hand. You simultaneously draw your weapon with your right and line up the gun with your body. This allows you to keep your attacker from grabbing your gun, If you brought up the gun as you normally do, the attacker would be able to wither grab or push the gun away. While it is great to have lots of practice, it doesn't hurt to have flexability in your tactics either.
 
stephen426 said:
What do you feel about firing from the hip? This is used when you are really close to your attacker....

It's not actually shooting from the hip, at least as I was taught by Louis Awerbuck.

Three points:

[1] The weak hand that is used to fend off the attacker should be brought immediately afterwards back in close to your body, preferably against the chest. One reason is to keep the hand from being in front of the muzzle when you start firing. The other is to have the weak hand ready and in position to assume its part of the two handed grip when you are able (see point 3).

[2] The gun is drawn straight upward from your strong side hip holster and the muzzle is then rotated to point at the target. The gun here is along side and slightly in front of the chest just slightly below the level of the pectoral muscle. the muzzle may be pointed in slightly since it's held somewhat at the side of your chest and you want the muzzle pointed at the center of your attacker. The gun is also titled slightly outward to assure that the slide (assuming you're using a semi-auto) has room to cycle without hanging up on your body or clothing.

[3] You begin shooting from this "retention" position, and as you fire, you begin moving backwards, or diagonally backwards, depending on the character of your environment. As you are moving backwards and creating distance, you can begin extending your strong arm and assuming a two handed grip on the gun.

We performed this drill in a class on close quarter combat taught by Louis Awerbuck, and it was very fast to both get the gun into play and to get good hits.

It looks sort of like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmKR6evZRQQ

From the movie Collateral, I'm told by a colleague I trust that Tom Cruise was trained by someone formerly in the SAS.
 
Thats a great clip. The first 2 shots looked like they were from the hip/retention position then the remainder from the extended position. Even though the first shots were not critical hits, it dropped the assailant and allowed the shooter to engage the other assailant.

I may be mistaken, but I believe that quite a few gun fights start with the good guy behind the reactionary curve. Say a guy pops out of a dark alley and sticks a gun in your face. I know most would say to comply, but if the mugger starts talking in a manner that leads you to believe he is going to kill you, you have to act. If he checks you for weapons and finds you are carrying, he might also shoot you or take your gun. This is where the quick draw and quick firing would be very useful.
 
...Even though the first shots were not critical hits, it dropped the assailant...
Anyway, we know that the reason BG1 dropped the way he did is because that's what the director told him to do. Be that as it may, the clip shows good technique and gun handling.

Notice how Tom Cruise re-holsters: smoothly sweeping his coat back, one handed, without looking, and maintaining muzzle and trigger discipline. He obviously had some good instruction.
 
So you now admit the repeatable index IS part of point shooting.
Ummm, I've always said that. I also say it is not the only part of point shooting.
So yes, target-focus has to have a repeatable index to work, just like sighted fire.
Sigh. No, deaf, it doesn't.
I really don't think you know much about it but what's posted here and other boards david.
Given that you have regularly admitted that you have never had any training in point shooting, and regularly make statements that recognized point shooting instructors show to be completely wrong, I really don't think you know enough about it to know how much somebody else knows.
 
Deaf Smith,

What do you feel about firing from the hip? This is used when you are really close to your attacker. Basically you step back with your right foot (if you are right handed) and push the attacker away with your left hand. You simultaneously draw your weapon with your right and line up the gun with your body. This allows you to keep your attacker from grabbing your gun, If you brought up the gun as you normally do, the attacker would be able to wither grab or push the gun away. While it is great to have lots of practice, it doesn't hurt to have flexability in your tactics either.

stephen,

First there are several 'versions' of point shooting. From Fairbrain/Applegate to Lucky McDanials, even Cirillo with his Silhouette Point had his own verion where you used the back of the slide to index on. All except the extreme close quarter methods bring the weapon into ones peripheral vision (speed rock, SouthNarcs position 1 of the four point draw, 1/4 hip of Applegate.)

They all require indexing of ones body to get hits. In fact, Applegate himself wrote that the 1/4 hip was not good for targets much higher or lower than the shooter (and that shows why peripheral vision plays a part in point shooting, even if you are not 'looking' for the weapon.) One can demonstrate this by blocking out the weapon from view as it is brought forward. You will see shooters, except the most experienced, do poorly. It's even truer if you put a garbage bag over the target so you cannot see the bullets strike and correct on the hits. Then you sort of have to guess if the rounds are striking or not (and with cloths, it is hard to see strikes on the street.)

Hip/Retention is a must. You can use any of the methods above (speed rock, SouthNarcs position 1 of the four point draw, 1/4 hip of Applegate, and others.) The Speed rock, were you lean backwards is to create distance, not do make any contact with the shooter. SouthNarcs method is to expect a grappling move and to take the impact and still be stable as well as protect the weapon. Applegates 1/4 is just to protect the weapon, not take any impact from a grappling person.

All other forms of point shooting have the weapon in peripheral vision. Like it or not you will see it (in fact McDanial emphasized it.)

My view is one learns a form of sighted fire and retention/hip shooting first. It can cover all bases. The retention/hip can go from 0 to 3 or so yards while the sighted fire can go from 1 to however far you can shoot! Yes an overlap. And yes, sighted fire can be used when one cannot 'see' the sights. One just brings the weapon to the same places (index you might say) and the shoots will be pretty good. Not as good as if you could see the sights but good hits.

Once you have mastered this, if you want to learn point shooting, great, but it's not a 'must' except for those with eyesight problems or totaly zero interest in firearms training (and we know how that will work out!!!)

I find point shooting is not as accurate as sighted fire. Those that say 'big deal' don't see you may have a partialy covered attacker, or one with a hostage, or one with armor all requiring a much better shot that just any 'COM' hit. And we all know pistol ammo is not very powerful, thus shot placement (as many posters here have posted) is number 1!!!!
 
ZeSpectre said:
Just curious, did you happen to pay attention to the distances? The rapid fire target was at 50 feet (16 yards).

No, because your chicken scratches aren't very readable from my 5 year old monitor.

stephen426 said:
I also think he failed to notice that your target was printed on a 8.5" x 11" piece of paper!!! Good shooting Z!

No I didn't, stephen. I read what was in bold and my eyes must have moved right past the finer print of the target size. I assumed that the sihlouette target was of actual size. No excuses. I just didn't catch all that was disclaimed. Sorry about that.

Fiddletown,

Your statements regarding what Louis Awerbuck is what I completely agree on. I've tried to explain where I was coming from on my way of pistol presentation in another thread. I was trying to understand why one would want move the gun to the center of your chest while firing the gun (in a nutshell). I was taught and prefer Randy Cain's teaching which he was a disciple of Awerbuck and others.
 
I'm going to the range again tomorrow. I'm going to bring some black electrical tape and tape the sights on my Glock. I'm going to concentrate more on my grip and how the guns feels in my hand rather than relying on the sights. I hope it works out! I will probably also work on firing faster while trying to keep adecent groupings. I will give you guys an update tomorrow.
 
I used to go to the range and shoot for as much accuracy as possible.
I would perfect my stance, makes sure that my grip was just right, get that perfect sight picture, control my breathing, etc....
And I was very accurate and my targets all looked real nice.

But lately I have changed the way I practice.
Now I mostly practive shooting with one hand, with about half my range time using my left hand (I'm right handed), and I practice rapid fire mainly just aiming with the front sight.
My targets don't look near as nice as they did before, but I think the "training" is more realistic.
 
I finally made it out to the range. I taped the sights on my Glock 26 and practiced point shooting without using the sights at 7 yards. My groups were not pretty at all and it the target looks like it got hit by a few rounds of buck shot to the chest. Most of my shots still hit upper COM, but I did have a few misses as well (almost all high and to the left). I believe those were a result of double tapping before getting back on target.

I also practiced firing string of 5 rounds as quickly as I could bring the gun back on target. While I didn't unload the gun as quickly as I could pull the trigger, I fired much faster than I normally practice and I focused on pulling the trigger as soon as the gun came back on target. This was mostly with my Glock 26 and my Kahr MK9 since those are what I carry. I did some drills from the low ready position and punching the gun out towards the target.

When I moved to my Les Baer, accuracy improved dramatically. While I know the Baer is much more accurate overall, I attibute most of that improvement to the longer sight radius and the overall pointability of the gun.

My observation from all of this "new" practice...
- Flash sight picture is MUCH more accurate than unsighted fire. Even if you are only looking over the top of the gun, accuracy improves dramatically. Having a consistent grip/stance/position leads to much better accuracy with unsighted fire and help line up your shot faster even with sighted fire. Practicing "rapid fire" is useful since it forces you to become more familiar with the gun's recoil characteristics (snappiness, recoil impulse, twist, etc...). With slow fire, there is too much time for resetting. Consequently, I feel more rapid fire drills will greatly improve my double tap ability since I will become more faimiliar with the gun's "reset position" (not sure of the term for when the gun goes back to the point of aim after the recoil cycle).

It was an eye opening experience and a bit humbling as well. It was hard not printing pretty little groups, but that will come in time. in the meanwhile, I've got some practicing to do!
 
stephen426,

It sounds like you had a worthwhile trip to the range. I also agree that rapid fire practice is very important. You want to learn to manage the recoil. I also suggest varying the number of shots in the shot string, making each string 2 to 5 or 6 shots with some speed reloads thrown in to keep the gun in action if you run dry during a string.

You might also want to invest in a shot timer so that you can see how fast you're shooting and get a better idea of the balance between speed and accuracy. As Jeff Cooper used to say, "Shoot as quickly as you can, but no quicker."

Well done.
 
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