I think I've had it wrong all these years

S

stephen426

New member
I went to the range tonight and there was this guy just unloading his gun as quick as he could into the target. He was shooting at 7 yards and kept most if his shots in a standard B27 target. His groupings looked more like a shotgun blast. Meanwhile, I was taking my time and shooting pretty little groups under controlled fire.

I was suprised the range officers didn't say anything since few, if any, indoor ranges allow rapid fire. It got me thinking though... Who cares about pretty little groups in a real gun fight if you can't do it quickly. In my opinion, it is much more importants to gets shots on your target and get them on quickly. I wish I had the time to get into IPSC but I also have to work a lot. I believe that rapid fire requires rapid target reacquisition. Of course rapid target acquisition is highly important since the first shot may end the gun fight.

For that reason, I think point shooting from the low ready position (basically bringing the gun up quickly from low ready) and rapid target reacquisition should have much more importance when practicing at the range. I'm not suggesting spray and pray by any means, but rather getting so used to your primary defensive gun that you don't rely on your sights.
What do you guys think?
 
Last edited:
That's why I've been thinking about IDPA.

Reaction time, target acquisition , trigger control.

Mike
 
I think you have a good point. But I also consider the best drill is to do the point shooting, but start slowly. Practice putting your shots into a small group, speeding up only when you can do so effectively. Shooting is similar learning how to play a musical instrument. Start each lesson slowly and build your speed as your brain learns the fingering. Start your firing slowly, learning to make tight groups, and then move up a notch to faster shots. They will be wider, but with practice you will tighten them at the faster speed. Eventually you will be making effective groups at fast shooting speeds.

Wide groups in practice equal misses in actual self defense; even at close range. If you drill effectively you will learn to shoot those smaller groups rapid fire. That is important if you must ever engage in actual combat. That is how I learned, and how I still drill.
 
Most "real handgun" fights last no more than 3 rounds.

Think about that...
Click to expand...

Think about slower carefully aimed shots and the ability to do that with a bad guy spray lead in your direction. Even lucky hits count against you and will certainly hamper your ability to shoot back. Of course being able to draw and shoot quickly and accurately is probably the best combination. The problem is most ranges don't allow holstered weapon, much less firing while drawing from a holster. I guess they have seen too many idiots shooting themselves in the legs.

The other point is becoming so familiar with your primary carry gun, that it becomes and extension of your hand. Even without sights, you should be able to hit your target at 21 feet and group relatively well. I think I will practice more with my sights taped up.
 
If you have never seen the video from the dash cam of the Ohio State trooper who shot it out with a bg at about 12 to 15 feet, . . . google around on high speed videos, . . . somebody probably out there has it, . . . it is worth the watch.

The bg comes around his suv passenger side and draws a handgun on the trooper and they begin to exchange rounds, . . . I forget the number of rounds, but it was like 15 from each, . . . maybe somewhat fewer, I don't remember.

Point is, . . . several seconds of spray and pray, . . . no hits. If either of them had taken time for a good aimed head shot, . . . the video would have been much different.

I have always been a proponent of "shoot what you aim at" and "aim at what you shoot". Especially in today, . . . where YOU are responsible for where EVERY LAST ROUND lands that you fire.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
He was shooting at 7 yards and kept most if his shots in a standard B27 target.
Click to expand...

B27 is the size of an obese gorilla. MOST of his shots? You mean he missed?

Considering the handgun is a very weak stopper we all know shot placement is the key to stopping someone. That means good solid COM, perferabley near the sternium unless you can deliver a CNS shot.I won't even get into the potiential of erriant shots killing someone else nor winchestering your gun one just one attacker leaves you vunerable to his friends.

Me think one needs to shoot one heck of alot better than 'most' of the shots on a B27.

Since you can shoot small groups, how about this. Go a little fiaster until the groups spread to about 8 inches. Then try to keep all the shots at 7 yards in that 8 inches as you get faster and faster.

You will have to speed up, then slow down, then speed up, slow down... till you can shoot very fast and keep all the shots COM, not 'most' on a B27.
 
One of my biggest problems with an indoor range is that the ones I've been to will not allow you to holster a loaded gun, especially in concealment. That draw from concealment is vital to your ability to use the gun in self defence.

Now that you've shot for years you should practice drawing from concealment and firing. Your basic tac-tac drill. Do it until it's smooth. Practice that draw at home with an empty weapon daily.

Then learn to draw and fire on the move, seeking C+C and such. Another thing you can't do on an indoor range.
 
Dwight,

I fully understand and agree that one is responsible for each and every round he fires. There is a difference between a spray and pray and being able to fire rapidly. While you may be taking your well aimed shot, a bad guy may be unloading his gun at you. Like I said, even off center hits will greatly hinder your ability to fight back. Besides, he could get luck and critically wound you with one of his shots.

The guy basically kept all of his shots on the target with maybe a few close misses.

I think I am just going to have to make time for IPSC or PPC. Shooting controlled fire while stationary at stationary targets has little to do with real world gun fights. I'm thinking paintball or even Airsoft might even be a better form of practice since you have to worry about getting hit as well. In paintball and airsoft, standing still to take a well aimed shot is usually suicide unless you are a sniper. Of course you can't go around spraying bullets like most guys spray paintballs/airsoft (unless you are in combat).
 
Last edited:
The guy basically kept all of his shots on the target with maybe a close misses.
Click to expand...

Stephen,

A B-27 is HUGE. Way bigger than most men. At 7 yards, standing still, that's not good at all, fast or slow. I would not recommend imitating his 'style'.

Tell you what, time how long it takes him to fire all those shots. Then look at how many are COM hits. Now instead just fire a controled pair of COM shots. Time them. I bet you do it faster than the spary-n-pray style and with better hits.
 
Either I'm old school or just plain poor.

Only thing I use now is an 8"x11" sheet of white paper with a quarter outlined in the center (25 yards) or a penny (at 7 yards):D
 
training for drawing

I carry a Kimber 1911. I have two airsoft 1911 replicas: one spring-operated (need to rack the slide for each shot); one gas operated (fill the "magazine" with "green gas" before each session) which repeats and operates just like the real 1911. Each fires 6-mm plastic pellets. The guns are the size and shape of the real thing, but of course are lighter.

I set up a silhouette target in my basement and practice drawing and firing. Once I'm satisfied with my draw, I'll try it with my carry gun and live ammo at my gun club. I'm not sure I'm ready for that yet. Anyway, I think using the airsoft replica gun helps to work out the kinks in drawing and firing.

I've tried firing "from the hip" and "from the gut." I don't do well at it. I have found that I can bring my gun up to eye level quickly and get good hits.

Spring-operated replicas run about $30. Gas operated replicas run over $100. You might want to try one of the spring-operated ones to see if it helps.
 
Spray and pray is not a good shooting technique. Learning target focused shooting (point shooting, instinctive shooting, etc.), on the other hand, is an excellent way to survive the usual CCW incident.
 
David Armstrong said:
Spray and pray is not a good shooting technique. Learning target focused shooting (point shooting, instinctive shooting, etc.), on the other hand, is an excellent way to survive the usual CCW incident.
Click to expand...

I edited my posts to show that I never advocated spray and pray. I think we agree on the point shooting technique though. I believe most would agree that you react in the manner you practice when the poop hits the fan. If you are attacked and you try to get the perfect sight picture before firing, you may end up dead. If you can draw and get your gun on target faster than the bad guy, your odds go up significantly.

I think I need to get back to my airsoft practice where I would start with the gun at low ready and try to acquire the target and fire as quickly as possible. I was hitting a 8" x 8" sticky target from across the room without relying on the sights. I was actually at the point where most of my shots were grouping within 3 inches. The problem is the airsoft I have is a Sig P226 replica and I carry a Glock 26. Time to get a new Airsoft I guess.

The idea behind being able to empty the gun as quickly as possible is you are relying more on the muscle memory of the "reset" than on sight picture. Basically, you can reset to where your point of aim is without relying on the sights, despite the recoil. I'm sure that is a matter of being very used to a gun. Like I said, few ranges allow you to rapid fire so many may not have even experienced it.

I guess my main point of this thread is to get people to think about their practice time at the range and see how it would translate to a real life gun fight. In my opinion, pretty groups under controlled fire is meaningless unless you can draw and fire quickly and accurately.
 
i shoot in a "league" at my local pistol range for this very reason

it really helps to become familiar with your weapon.
stuff like having 7 seconds to rack one in the chamber and fire 6 rounds at a ~6" target, 50' away.
very good practice
 
I believe most would agree that you react in the manner you practice when the poop hits the fan.
Click to expand...
That seems to depend in large part on just how much you have practiced.
I edited my posts to show that I never advocated spray and pray.
Click to expand...
Fair enough, my comment was more of a general point than at you specifically.
I guess my main point of this thread is to get people to think about their practice time at the range and see how it would translate to a real life gun fight.
Click to expand...
It's a good point, one that lots of folks never do get. My old training group's motto was "HOPE THAT YOUR TRAINING WILL BE A REFLECTION OF REAL LIFE INSTEAD OF HOPING THAT REAL LIFE WILL BE A REFLECTION OF YOUR TRAINING."
 
I just listened to a Michael Bane Podcast and he now believes the "shoot until they are on the ground" as opposed to shoot to stop as he taught before. The bottomline is eliminate the threat. BTW, I knew you weren't advocating "spray and pray" and the example you gave was not such.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top