I still get confused about MOA and holdover

603Country said:
After all the back and forth verbiage on drops, it should be easier to understand why i’ve long been a fan of the 200 yard zero and the related 7..20..40 inch drops. It’s easy to remember, easy to use, and requires no turret twisting or heavy thinking. For target shooting, a couple of my rifles are actually sighted in at 100 yards, but I set the turrets for a 200 yard zero when hunting. Keeping things simple works best for me.
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Actually I've never understood the idea of the 200yd zero. Then I have used MPBR at a specific size target for years. With an 8" target, I usually use 6", that will cover every rifle I own shooting to 300+/- yds which is where I limit myself any way.

At what ranges, zeroed at 200 yds do you have to start adjusting for hold over?
 
Actually I've never understood the idea of the 200yd zero. Then I have used MPBR at a specific size target for years. With an 8" target, I usually use 6", that will cover every rifle I own shooting to 300+/- yds which is where I limit myself any way
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Don: As this thread illustrates,different strokes for different folks. If we consider the typical trajectory of a 30-06/308,etc cartridge...folks figured out they could extend the effective easy to use range over the 100 yd zero by sighting in 2 in or 2 1/2 in high at 100 yds. That will ballpark a 200 yd zero,+ or -,and be still hold on the hair at 250. Around 300,it will be 8 or 9 in low. Hold a touch high.
That was easy and met the needs of most hunters to a sensible limit of 300yds or so. Not confusing.Practical. And its SO much better than not having a clue.

The next stage of sophistication ...Maybe you got a Sierraload manual? Read about BC,using the charts,maximum point blank range...Sure.Thats the next stage for those who want it ,understand it,and can keep it straight in their head.

But for a lot of folks2 in high 100,on at 200,8 in low at 300 is simple and useful,particularly if you range by "How many football fields does that look like"
Which beats not having a clue.

Those ways have made a lot of venison.

And there are lasers,calculators(smartphone) ,kestrel wind gauges,altimeters,etc for those who go that way.

I know the dimensions of my duplex. I can use mildot principle to range,and I can Kentucky with just my scope to reasonable ranges where my trajectory is forgiving with just my fixed 6x scope.
 
HiBC is quite right, in that everyone may have a slightly different way to accomplish the same thing. Probably my 200yard zero thinking had its beginnings in my years with a 35 Remington. I shot a lot of deer out past 100yards, and I had to sort of lob the bullet in order to hit the deer. That logic carried over to the 270 that I moved to next, though the bullet path is much flatter. After those years with the 35, I have to be very careful not to shoot too high. Anyway, my approach is now so ingrained that when pressed for time on a hunting shot, my instinct is to shoot as if I have a 200 yard zero. My going to a 100 yard zero for a few years caused me to miss a few coyotes and shoot a few deer too low. So now, with turreted scopes sighted for 100 yards, I just dial for a 200 yard zero and leave it there and all is well. Maybe my situation is a version of the “can’t teach an old dog new tricks”.

If I went to the more extreme MPBR, sighting in at 100 yards 3 or 3.5 inches high, i’m afraid i’d miss a bit too often.
 
ms6852 said:
Back to Basics, just in case:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA2PZBD5Tjg
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I know how to set up MPBR and it will be good to +/- 300 yds. I pretty much limit myself to 300 yds or less, mostly a lot less when shooting at big game. On paper I've only shot to 500 yds and I can set up on it with the rifle zeroed at MPBR also. Now in the video the guy completely lost me at about 3 min and at 6 min, I turned it off. When I do shoot at paper at 500 yds, not a lot, I develop a trajectory chart For that load on my chronograph. I know it will do it to 1000 yds and devide it into very small increment's, about 25 - yd increments. I shoot against that data to insure it's right. The chronograph tells me just how far the bullet will drop at any range based on how it's zero'ed.

This stuff he's talking makes no sense to me at all. But I imagine if that is the way you learn to do it, I guess it works. Fortunately for me I restrict my shooting at game animals to under 300 yds. I can't imagine a hunter that never or even seldom shoot's past 300 yds using that method, much to confusing. Not only that, but I don't see any value to having to elevate at 300 yds when zero'ed 3" at 100 yds, most CF cartridge's you can aim dead on at 300 yds and get a good hit. The next day we used the same rock but I used my 30-06 with a 180gr Hornady SP. I held 5 or 6 inch's over and hit it every time. That means a dead on hold at a deer at 300 yds will equal a dead deer and I don't shoot game animals that far off. Oop's, did one time just to say I did it. 330 yds onn the range finder used my 6.5x06 zero'd MPBR at an 8" target. Held dead on and dropped to deer with one shot, not, zero hold over! I've never done that again and never considered trying it again.

If you are zero'd dead on at 200 yds, what's the hold over at say 300 yds? With MPBR it is zero! Beyond that, it's much more to do about the shooter than the ability of the cartridge.
 
Maybe he should. He's zero'd at 100 yds and has to hold over 8" at 200 yds. That is not making very good use of whatever cartridge he's using. Maybe I'm really missing something here.
 
Don, that’s a good question -hunting or target shooting. If he does both and requires precision in target shooting at long range, a good turreted scope will be needed. If he’s hunting, and shots past 300 aren’t needed, any decent duplex crosshairs scope is fine.

And I think you asked, with a rifle zeroed at 200, what’s the holdover at 300. Since I put it in print 2 or 3 times, i shouldn’t have to say it again, but the holdover (with a caliber giving about 2900 to 3100 fps) is 7 inches. And 20 inches at 400. Naturally, it would be good to know what the range is to the deer, which is why I carry an inexpensive range finder. If the buck is 300 yards off, put the horizontal crosshair on the top of the deer’s back, and behind the shoulder and drop the bullet into the lungs, which gives a generous kill zone.

These days I hunt with a 200 yard zero and a turreted scope and my cheat sheet on scope clicks if i’m shooting past 300 or out to 400. I don’t shoot deer at 400 yards, but coyotes and pigs definitely get a bullet (if I deliver).
 
603Country said:
Don, that’s a good question -hunting or target shooting. If he does both and requires precision in target shooting at long range, a good turreted scope will be needed. If he’s hunting, and shots past 300 aren’t needed, any decent duplex crosshairs scope is fine.

And I think you asked, with a rifle zeroed at 200, what’s the holdover at 300. Since I put it in print 2 or 3 times, i shouldn’t have to say it again, but the holdover (with a caliber giving about 2900 to 3100 fps) is 7 inches. And 20 inches at 400. Naturally, it would be good to know what the range is to the deer, which is why I carry an inexpensive range finder. If the buck is 300 yards off, put the horizontal crosshair on the top of the deer’s back, and behind the shoulder and drop the bullet into the lungs, which gives a generous kill zone.

These days I hunt with a 200 yard zero and a turreted scope and my cheat sheet on scope clicks if i’m shooting past 300 or out to 400. I don’t shoot deer at 400 yards, but coyotes and pigs definitely get a bullet (if I deliver).
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I've hunted with a 30-06 for more than 50 years and never did a hold over. I prefer to adjust the elevation on the scope up or down with my known ballistic chart for my loads and rifle with a 26" barrel. I am OC'd when it comes to shooting animals at various distances, where rocks and targets it is unimportant. You can hit the rock or the target but if it is not in the vital killing zone for a deer...say about 5 or 6 inches, guessing is something I do not like to do at 3,or 400 yards on that animal as I am not that good. Just my 2 cents.
 
Don:Actually,if I have it right,the OP is trying to figure out something for his brother in law with a Muzzle Loader.
Review post 23. Different strokes for different folks.
There are several ways to do this stuff. Pick the one that suits your style and meets your needs.

You said the guy in the vid lost you. That's OK. You have figured out MPBR. Its a good system. It meets your needs.Very practical for hunting.No need to change.

Going clear back to the "express" loads,like the 45-90 with its 300 gr bullet,folks have been trying to flatten trajectory.The 30-30 was a breakthrough! Then the 30-40 came up against the 7mm Mauser...All iron sights.Fast Forward to Roy Weatherby. Scopes,..Magnums,high vel,recoil,and short barrel life..BUT Hunters love the plan. 243,270,7mm Magnum,etc.
About a 300 yd max range is honest for most hunters,at best.We already talked about 200yd zero.Some high vel cartridges are good for a 300 yd zero.
Few high intensity cartridges exceed a 5 in midrange 400 yd MPBR.
That's OK. 400 yds is really far. Ranging and wind get important.
The knowledge of that system made us better field marksmen. Better hunters.

Here is what we need to understand about the "Basics " video. Its right,too.Its good basic theory about MOA vs inches.
Something else happened to shooting.The laser rangefinder,the kestrel wind gauge,ballistic software in the smartphone,and improved optics with accurate,repeatable adustments.Youtube videos. More people know the military long range methods.
The gentleman in the video does not use Kentucky windage.He comes from US Military Sniper background. He shoots a 308. He sights in at 100yds because it keeps things simple.
If he ranges a target,or maybe game,at 587 yds,he knows what sight correction to dial into his scope. He holds dead on.
And,odds are he can hit what he shoots at.

I'm not a sniper. I own all the tools,including a fancy rifle and scope.I know the drill and can use it pretty well.

But,for myself,I don't care to carry a laser anymore. I don't need to shoot more than a practical range for my rifle. I have all I need for hunting big game my way in my 6x duplex.I'm satisfied with 300 and something yards.Actually,I can Kentucky 435 yds with my rig.Not that I shoot at game that far.

But,if I chose to hunt at 723 yds,you bet,I'd use that sniper's system.

Its just not as hard as you are making it. Use what you understand. Use what works for you.But other systems work,too.
 
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Speaking only for myself, i hunt on family land (mine and others) and have used a range finder to find distance to certain terrain features. I rarely use the RF prior to shooting because I know how far it is to this fencepost or that tree. I also rarely use the turrets on my rifle, but that’s due only to lack of time. Where I hunted for most of my life, when you see the big buck you only have seconds to get the gun up and shoot. If you are messing with binocs or scope turrets, you may not have time for the shot. I know this from depressing personal experience. So, holdover is what I do at reasonable distances, and a 7 inch holdover on a deer at 300 yards really isn’t hard to estimate. And if you are a lung shooter + or - 3 inches isn’t a problem. The 270 and 260 work fine with my approach.

As for the need, or not, to have a RF, they are useful after the shot. Some years back I shot a monster 9 point that almost slipped by me on a narrow dirt road in heavy fog. I had just a few seconds. The shot felt like a good one. Light was failing. I waited a bit then walked to where I thought the buck had been. No blood. I went back to the elevated blind and lasered the distance to where the buck had been standing. 268 yards. Walked to where I thought that was and lasered the blind till I was at 268 yards. Yep, blood. Found him. Weighed almost 300 pounds. Old buck. So, a RF has other uses, and I feel like it’s worth having.
 
The OP was asking if he understood drop compensation correctly.

Heads have definitely exploded
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True the OP's question was answered in the first posts( #4,#5,#7) and also true the discussion has gone well beyond the OP's need for information.

IMO,the phrase "head exploding" implies emotion or loss of control.Its somewhat disparaging. Why do that?
There IS such a thing as a thread degenerating to irrelevant and non-productive off topic discussions.Being cute. Or squabbles. When that happens we have a Staff of Moderators who will put the thread back on track or close it.

Threads can evolve into productive educational discussions.Why stop those?

Its hunting season. If people piggy back with questions about sighting,trajectory,and how to deliver clean,successful results in the field,what is the problem with taking the question seriously and giving a useful answer?

This thread may help a lot of folks with similar questions.

There is no "head exploding"

There are folks who do not quite understand,who want to understand,that asked for help.
Its OK to advance,or understand another system and say"Cool,but that's not for me,at least not now" The ACOG reticle and the Boone and Crockett reticle are another system. BDC cams are another system.Long ago,having a barrel open sight,a tang peep,and a bi-level Beech Combination front sight was another system. And I'll bet maybe 1 % of folks understand the purpose of a Beech Combination.Ask,and I'll tell you.
Learning. Sharing.
So,why are we here?
 
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