I see a problem. Give me one reason LEO's need this.

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The Militarization of 'Mayberry'

The Militarization of 'Mayberry'

Exploding Number of S.W.A.T. Teams Set Off Alarms

Critics See Growing Role of Heavily Armed Police Units as 'Militarization' of Law Enforcement

[Washington Post - 6/17/97] FRESNO, Calif. -- Sgt. Wade Engelson is preparing his new recruits for war.

Dressed in fatigues, sporting buzz hair cuts, the new men are being trained in the use of submachine guns, explosives and chemical weapons. They have at their disposal a helicopter and, soon, an armored personnel carrier.

Engelson's men are not Navy Seals or Army Rangers. They are members of the Fresno Police Department, whose enemy will not be found in faraway lands but in the neighborhoods where the police routinely patrol -- fully armed and in urban camouflage.

In their expanding strength and mission, the SWAT team in Fresno mirrors a growing trend in U.S. law enforcement -- the rise in the number of police paramilitary units across the country and a rapid expansion of their activities, a controversial trend that police scholars refer to as "the militarization" of civilian police.

The explosive growth and expanding mission of SWAT teams has, in turn, led to complaints that an occupying army is marching through America's streets -- that they are too aggressive, too heavily armed, too scary -- and that they erode the public's perception of police as public servants.

"It's a very dangerous thing, when you're telling cops they're soldiers and there's an enemy out there," said Joseph McNamara, former chief of police in San Jose and Kansas City who is now at the Hoover Institute at Stanford University. "I don't like it at all."

In a new study, police researcher Peter Kraska and his colleagues have documented the explosive growth of SWAT, which stands for Special Weapons and Tactics. In a nationwide survey of 690 law enforcement agencies serving cities with populations with 50,000 or more, the researchers found that 90 percent now have active SWAT teams, compared with 60 percent in the early 1980s.

Even in rural communities and smaller cities, the researchers have found that two of every three departments now boast a SWAT team -- a phenomenon Kraska compares to "militarizing Mayberry," he said referring to the fictional small town in the Andy Griffith television show.


Yet more important than the raw numbers, Kraska says, the SWAT mission has expanded. Once limited to highly specialized actions, such as dealing with barricaded gunmen or hostage-takers, the SWAT teams are now increasingly engaged in more standard police work. There is a boom in "high risk warrant work," including "no-knock entries." The work is mostly related to the war on drugs, and by extension, "gang suppression."

"Where the SWAT teams were once deployed a few times a year, they are now used for all kinds of police work -- dozens of calls, hundreds of calls a year," said Kraska, a professor of police studies at Western Kentucky University. "In SWAT units formed since 1980, their use has increased by 538 percent." And some units, like those in Fresno, are being deployed full time as roaming patrols.

The 30 members of Fresno's Violent Crime Suppression Unit now patrol crime-ridden neighborhoods day and night, serving warrants at homes of suspected drug dealers and criminals, stopping vehicles, interrogating gang members, showing a presence.

As they move through the city of 400,000 people, they wear subdued gray-and-black urban camouflage and body armor, and have at the ready, ballistic shields and helmets, M17 gas masks and rappelling gear. More equipment is carried in a mobile command SWAT bus that roves the city. The deparment is purchasing an armored personnel carrier.

The tactical police here also carry an assortment of weaponry denied the normal beat cop -- battering rams, diversionary devices known as "flashbangs," chemical agents, such as pepper spray and tear gas, and specialized guns, including assault rifles and, most famously, the Heckler and Koch MP5, the short, highly accurate 9mm, fully automatic submachine gun used by the Navy Seals.

...

"Despite the conventional wisdom that community policing is sweeping the nation, the exact opposite is happening," said McNamara. "The police and their communities ought to think seriously about this. Is there a need for SWAT teams? Yes, for highly specialized functions. But the police love these units, and this is a disastrous image to project."

McNamara and other police scholars say that the positive impact of the SWAT teams on reducing crime is most likely short-lived -- and that the pressure must be maintained. They also fear that heavily armed, commando-style police -- if they remain in a neighborhood for long -- will eventually be seen as an occupying army.

Kraska said his research shows that the rise in SWAT activities has closely followed the increased resources applied to fight illegal drug use.

"The drug war created the atmosphere for this kind of pro-active policing," Kraska said. "We have never seen this kind of policing, where SWAT teams routinely break through a door, subdue all the occupants and search the premises for drugs, cash and weapons."

Between 1980 and 1995, for example, Kraska found that SWAT units were employed in their traditional roles only for a minority of call-outs. Some 1.3 percent of their work was to quell civil disturbances; 3.6 percent for hostage situations; 13.4 percent for barricaded individuals. But 75 percent of their mission is now devoted to serve high-risk warrants, mostly drug raids.

...

Kraska's survey of police departments finds many SWAT teams are instructed by active and retired U.S. military experts in special operations. The SWAT teams also receive training not only from the FBI, the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center and National Tactical Officers Association, but in classes organized by private companies.

One of the most popular courses is offered by Heckler and Koch, which trains hundreds of SWAT officers a year. The company also offers the units discounts on its popular weapons, such as the MP5. Kraska points to the private companies role in the encouragement of SWAT response as part of a new "crime control industry."

Larry Glick, executive director of the National Tactical Officers Association, said that some of the private training seminars are taught by "retired military personnel who don't know what they're doing." The training offered by Heckler and Koch is "very successful and credible, among the best," he said. "Their ultimate goal is to sell their guns."

Kraska and other police scholars said that even with the most community-sensitive training, the new weaponry and paramilitary-style tactics of the SWAT units attract a different kind of officer -- less the cop as social worker and more the cop as an elite special 'ops' soldier. And most SWAT officers are paid a premium for the work.

"The SWAT teams love this stuff," Kraska said. "It's fun to fire these weapons. It's exciting to train. They use 'simmunition' -- like the paint balls and play warrior games. This stuff is a rush."

In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only.

[posted June 22, 1997]

http://www.refuseandresist.org/big_brother/062297swat.html
 
But for someone to tell me that I must go out and protect them and then demand that I not use any and all means to secure MY safety why protecting theirs is a moron.

Uhh, EXCUSE ME????

Didn't you, like, VOLUNTEER to be a cop?
Don't you have the ability to say "no" when told you "must go out and protect them..." even if it means quitting your job?

You're a cop, you put yourself in harms way, and now you cry about it and call US "morons" because you can't have the latest ninja toy that lets you do stuff to us with impunity?

Get real.

Who funds these purchases? WE do. Yet you want to use this stuff against us in the name of "officer safety".

Again, get real.

The only purpose of this sort of gear in the hands of Law Enforcement is intimidation. One wonders why our law enforcement servants hate & fear us so much that they "need" this sort of equipment.
 
Let's not fan flames anymore fellas.


Cops want these for different reasons. I believe our LEO on this board wants it for a good reason, personal protection.

We, as a free people, know that someday this WILL be used against us law abiding gun owners.

If LEOs get them, WE GET THEM TOO. Do you all see the tension here. There really is no way to settle this in a win-win situation unless the laws change in regards to 2nd ammendment rights.

As a LEO, jcoiii, you must realize that YOU can have access to a plethora of goodies for personal protection. WE DON'T.

As normal citizens, we must realize that each individual officer is a human. They have families that they want to come home to. They work hard to protect us.


It all comes down to police turning into military units that may not be detrimental to us now, but just wait a few years. They turn into military partially because we as a people are no longer able to defend ourselves from criminals....criminal get more power, weapons, etc...they kill cops.

Give us our rights, cops won't have to be in so much danger. IMHO


Also citizens not being able to defend themselves from a tyranny, a defense granted in the constitution.

I hope I didn't ramble too much here. :p
 
Wildcard, i would be interested in hearing about your personal L.E. experiences

At what agency where these "shifts" performed at? What was your official capacity? Certified - reserve officer - status?

Step up and enlighten us.


12-34hom.
 
Wildcard, i would be interested in hearing about your personal L.E. experiences

At what agency where these "shifts" performed at? What was your official capacity? Certified - reserve officer - status?

Step up and enlighten us.


12-34hom.

Does not matter at all, where, when I worked. My opinion is valid. The only reason you want to know is so you can try to impeach me, since you cant impeach my arguement.
 
>yet another cop hater thread<

Ya know, I was gonna call ya on this. Then all the "us/them" stuff started...

Should officerrs be allowed this? Sure... their job is to go home safe after their shift. Should we ("the People") be allowed access to the same equipment? You betcha! Should EVERY mention of something to do with police immediately bring out the cops on one side (see the quote), and the "civilians" on the other screaming "JBTs!!!"? Emphatically NO! But it continues, thread after thread...

Hint to LEOs: not EVERY instance of a someone pointing out police wrongdoing (or asking if police went too far) is "cop bashing". Assuming such just increases the 'Us/Them" mentality.

Hunt to "civilians": assuming EVERY instance of a cop using extreme measures is an abuse does the same damn thing...
 
The statement that LEO safety shouldn't come at the expense of other's rights confuses me. Aren't LEOs also imbued with the same rights as everyone else?

I stated in a thread here sometime ago that the SWAT theme is following the Fire Department theme in many areas. By that I mean that each little town had it's own Fire Department. As the towns grew closer and closer, and the departments moved into better quarters, some of them were located just blocks away from each other. The County, or City (large) takes over the entire system, and tries to consolidate the little departments, saving on money, equipment, and manpower. However, the citizens and politicians bend heaven and hell to protect "their" department. With SWAT, too many small departments are using their budgets to maintain SWAT Teams in areas already covered by County, State, or Federal Teams. Why? Because it's "their" territory. There are too many SWAT Teams out there. They are a drain on the budgets of small departments.

That said, the busy SWAT Teams are battling an urban war out here. They assault heavily fortified buildings, fighting multiple Bad Guys, and trying to do so without killing unnecessarily, either the Bad Guys or the Hostages, or innocent by-standers.

They deserve the best equipment that money can buy. If you're a hostage, you really don't give a hoot if the guy who rescues you does so with equipment that you couldn't buy. Besides that, this equipment ties in nicely with the less-than-lethal armament that LEO suppliers are developing. Being really bullet-resistant, and actually in touch with your team-mates might just prevent needless deaths. Oh, and I'll doubt that there are too many teams who can afford the total costs of the suits, head gear, support systems, expendables inherent in the system, and spare parts/replacement parts. I'd be willing to guess that the system will, with the above mentioned logistics, cost several hundred thousand dollars per unit.:)
 
Whatever helps them do their jobs.

Just so long as they buy the toys with *their own money* from their allotted budgets, and not from the stuff they appropriate from the druggies and druggies' friends - having forfeiture money go directly to the LEOA responsible for seizing it rather than to the general state coffers is so wrong it's ridiculous; and that's true even if you wholeheartedly agree with the idea of the druggies forfeiting their stuff even if they're found not guilty
 
Guess the average Joe doesn't need black rifles either, eh?

After all, it's how something looks, not how it's used, right? :barf: :rolleyes:
 
I don't see any reason why police shouldn't have these. It comes down to officer safety being of utmost importance with no curtailing of the rights of citizens.

On the flip side - Do any police officers on this board have a problem with these being sold on ebay for whoever would want one?
 
Wildcard states - It does not matter at all where, when i worked

Sure it does, i asked a legit question - you made a claim to have "been there done that" so what's the problem - if your claim is true and you have bona fides to prove such claims - let's see it.

Your answer tells me everything i need to know about your "real life" experiances = dust in the wind.

12-34hom.
 
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