I never understood the Israeli practice of carrying with an empty chamber

[fastbolt]

Old topic, long since beaten into a mud puddle.

FWIW, I once spent a day training (special LE swat training opportunity) with some Israeli gentlemen who were part of a special group of highly trained Israeli government folks. I noticed they kept their Glocks chambered. Every time a Glock was holstered as a live weapon and was appropriate for the training. They even simulated 'loading the chamber' before holstering EMPTY Glocks, when using them for demo purposes in parts of the training involving no live ammunition could be present.

I asked why they didn't carry with an empty chamber, like was often discussed in training circles and advertised as a technique taught by some former Israeli military in commercial classes here in the US.

He basically politely chuckled, and said that carrying with an empty chamber was done for safety reasons ... for the average military and civilian police in the course of their duties.

 

[HiBC]

The example of "Glock knee" was given. OK. Supposedly Alec Baldwin had an
"Empty Chamber" . The routine,or the expectation the chamber is empty leads to complacency....or at least,it can.

Is my "No Safety" version of a Shield Plus with a round in the chamber dangerous?
Darn right it is. I know it is. All the time, every time .

A key component is the holster. It keeps the trigger inaccessible to touch.

An organization like the IDF will have policy. Policy is not optional. Its not always good policy. A certain amount of sausage making might go into policy making. So we get mediocre policy.
"Ok, I will concede to allowing handguns but only if the chamber is empty"

 

[Mike P. Wagner]

One reason I'm told the Israeli army trains this way is due to the fact that there is no one standard sidearm. They use a variety and there is no one training method to cover all handguns. If you have to chamber a round before firing, they all work the same. And someone who is skilled at it can be pretty fast.

This is what I have heard from several Israeli friends - they want to be able to use whatever firearm is available - even those taken from an enemy.

If you know absolutely nothing about a specific pistol’s controls or condition ie. “Is there a round in the chamber?”, this is allegedly the fastest to bring it into the battle.

The number of people I have talked to is certainly not statistically significant.

So I don’t Knopf whether this is true or not.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Well, the important thing is that the Israeli system of downgrading everyone to the same level of (not) readiness seems like a good idea and works for them, except when it doesn't.

 

[Shodan]

This is what I have heard from several Israeli friends - they want to be able to use whatever firearm is available - even those taken from an enemy.

If you know absolutely nothing about a specific pistol’s controls or condition ie. “Is there a round in the chamber?”, this is allegedly the fastest to bring it into the battle.

The number of people I have talked to is certainly not statistically significant.

So I don’t Knopf whether this is true or not.

That sounds like a reasonable explanation, especially if told to you first hand. An interesting follow up question would be to ask why they'd carry their own gun in that condition. One that they are hopefully very familiar with.

 

[fastbolt]

That sounds like a reasonable explanation, especially if told to you first hand. An interesting follow up question would be to ask why they'd carry their own gun in that condition. One that they are hopefully very familiar with.

The deliberate condition in which a personal weapon is maintained is a different matter than a battlefield/street 'pickup' weapon, since you can't know whether a 'pickup' weapon is loaded, let alone chambered. You ought to know the condition of your own, though.

How someone is required to carried a weapon for employment or other duty may be set by policy. How it's carried for personal defense carry other than employment or duty use is the choice - and RESPONSIBILITY - of the individual.

This is similar to how some cops who carried pistols with manual safeties (like S&W TDA pistols) may have been required to carry On-Safe, while others issued the same guns were allowed (or required) to carry them Off-Safe, aka-Ready-to-Fire with a DA trigger press.

I saw a few cops who lateraled to my former agency, issued a S&W TDA duty weapon, who preferred to carry them On-Safe, even though our agency recommended they be carried Off-Safe/Ready-to-Fire. They were allowed to do so, with the thinking that if they'd already spent some years carrying and using them On-Safe (having to take them Off-Safe as part of their draw and presentation), why 'fix' what wasn't broken? Especially if manipulating the lever had been deeply ingrained in their software and they were going to fumble with pushing the lever forward anyway.

Sure, some appreciated being able to now carry Ready-to-Fire once they tried it on the training and qual ranges, but there were a few who wanted to stay with their original training (developed at their former agencies). Then, there were those who had started out carrying DA revolvers, and were comfortable with having an initial DA trigger press without any manual safeties involved, and who could adapt to returning to a duty weapon that was Ready-to-Fire with a heavy DA trigger press.

Different strokes.

 

[44 AMP]

He basically politely chuckled, and said that carrying with an empty chamber was done for safety reasons ... for the average military and civilian police in the course of their duties.

THERE YOU GO.

"Experts" carry they way they think best. Soldiers (and police, sometimes) are required to carry the way their superiors order.

Chamber empty carry, as required by the military (and that includes the US military) is for SAFETY!! But not, as most people assume, the safety of the person carrying the gun. It is for the safety of the rest of the world, and, with good reason!!

Don't ever confuse practices that are for the best interests of the military with those that are in your best interests. Some may be, some definately are not.