I need a non-assault urban defense rifle

Look at Germany: K98 Mausers were classified as "weapons of war", off-limits to mere humans until recently. It might get this far here, before long.

I'd review your priorities...and get whatever works best for you. You can always get a small 5-rd magazine for whatever you get and top it off manually through the ejection port while at the range...
 
I say go for the M1A, or the Garand, or the 30-30. There will always be .308, .30-06, and 30-30 ammo around. The lever action would be more PC if you have to have it that way. Plus you can never go wrong with a 12 guage shotgun. Buy one of each if you can :)One thing the above mentioned rifles have going for them is that they are all made in the U.S.A. so you won't have to worry about "import bans", and parts will be easier to come by. You say "urban defense", what ever you decide on, consider over penetration before firing. Sorry this was so long.
 
In order of preference for me (if you MUST go PC):

1. Pump-action shotgun (Mossberg, Remington, or Winchester) in 12-gauge
2. Lever-action in .44 magnum and load it with .44 specials, or one chambered for .30-.30
3. Mini-14, because it IS threatening while not LOOKING threatening (and there are 30-round magazines available for them, but the neighbors don't have to know that)
4. Bolt-action rifle in .308 or .30-06

If, as you say, money is no object, then I would get myself one for up close and personal use (the shotgun), and one for far away (the bolt gun). You should be able to get a good shotgun AND a good bolt-action rifle (with a scope) for well under $1000.

Hope you find what you are looking for, and soon.
 
I tend to agree with the idea 'get the least PC gun you can find'. It would do us all some good to be more visible with our ugly guns, if we act in a calm and responsible manner that is. What we need is for the non gun owner to be able to associate our politically incorrect guns with respected friends and associates. This is my belief anyway but you all need to get that straight on an individual basis. Every time I go to the rifle range I bring my AR even if I have no intention of shooting it. I also try to leave the place cleaner than I found it for the above mentioned reasons but I digress. If you must, for your own reasons, choose your defensive guns this way I would avoid any autoloader with a detachable magazine, in fact I would suggest you avoid anything that can't trace its lineage to the last century. I will second the #4 mk1 Enfield unless you are focused on 50 yards or less. If short range is your only concern the lever action would be a prime choice, set it up with a good apeture sight and you have a fast handling carbine. The Enfield will be easier to load with the stripper clips, under stress you will probably fumble loading the lever gun. Even with the claimed versatility of the shotgun I prefer the rifle, better range lighter more compact ammunition, easier to shoot, etc.
 
I have had the same concerns in the past and also wanted to have the 1 rifle that could do all things that are required from a rifle...including self defense.

My answer...

The original Scout Rifle configuration!

To make it an economic alternative I built one up from scratch with a local gunsmith.

I started with a Rem. 700 BDL barreled receiver and shortened the barrel to 18 1/2" and also lapped in the bolt and lugs.

I had the necessary holes drilled and tapped to accept the Burris Scout Scope mount. I also mounted the existing front sight just ahead of the scope mount and modified it to be used as the Ghost Ring front post as part of the secondary sight set up.

I mounted a Williams Ghost ring Rear sight to the existing scope base mounting holes.

Now zero the ghost ring set up before mounting the scope.

The scope is the 2.5X Leupold Scout Scope and it is superb! Mount it just ahead of the ejection port so to clear the spent cases.

I put the finished action in an HS Precesion Pro Series stock and drilled the appropriate holes in the stock to mount the "Ching Sling" from Galco. I used Millet flush mounts that are spring loaded and engage and disengae the "T" type swivels with just a push and a turn. Cool! (You can see this in Jeff Coopers book..."The Art of the Rifle".

I also mounted a Galco leather cartridge holder on the stock which holds 5 rounds at the ready. The original solution was a stock that actually held rounds in the rear portion of the stock with a Trap Door for access but I could not find the manufacturer for this.

If I could change one thing, it would be to have the BDL rotary magazine option that was not available when I built the rifle.

This solution only cost $1200.00 total with the gunsmith modifications of drilling, tapping, shortening the barrel, crowning the barrel and rebluing the entire action.

It was also a blast to build!

The gun shot 1/2" groups at 200 yards using a 20X scope so you could hold that good out of a bench rest type front end and rear bunny bag. Man was I a happy camper.
And oh yes, it is in .308 Win. of course

If you have any questions on this email me and I can further explain.




------------------
"ACK"
 
Hard Ball: How do you fit a "mime in the magazine tube" ? Doesn't he get cramped in there? he he he ;)

FWIW, I concur with the .30-30 L/A suggestion for a beater gun. These "cowboy guns" are as PC as guns can be and yet are fast, light, cheap and powerful. Sure, the pistol-caliber guns hold more rounds, but the Marlin M336 holds 6 in the tube (which is nothing to sneeze at) and can be topped off without opening the action. Slap a butt cuff on it if you need more than six rounds.

If you need a beefier, longer-range round, and don't want a semiauto or bolt action why not try the pump action Rem 7400 in .30-06 (or .270)? It's cheap, easy to use, and box magazines for it are cheap and readily avaialble.
 
Big 5 sporting goods stores have the Winchester 94 (level action) Trapper model on sale for $279; I almost bought one in .44 Magnum, and I was only in there to buy socks! This model is nice for close quarters, because it has the short 16" barrel. Holds 9 rounds.
 
I bring Ar15/Mak90 for hunters to try at the range so they get past the "icky black evil" stage. It works.

One thought...I recommend a magazine rifle for safety reasons: much easier to clear without chambering any ammo.

------------------
Oleg

http://dd-b.net/RKBA
 
Thanks all.

I like the non-PC idea. That is why I have an AR already ;) You all are right, I should not cave, I will not be trading in my AR for a more PC gun. But, in the end, I discovered that I am really looking for a cheaper gun for a "trunk gun" basically.

There are many good ideas above. Even the Ruger Mini-14 would be a good lead-spitter if I got caught in a riot or something.

But, for the trunk gun I opted to get a lever-action.
It seemed that it would get me in less trouble from the cops if they saw it (most people don't drive around with a rifle in the trunk in the city, so just having one is wierd enough to most people), and it fills the role very well. Not only that, but I just think it is way cool, and I grew up shooting those types of guns, so I am quite an accomplished snap shot with that setup.

I got a .357 Magnum Winchester 94 "Trails End".
I got the .357 Magnum because it is plenty of power for thin-skinned medium game (if you catch my drift), especially out of that 18" barrel, ....and I can reload ammo for it, .....and it is cheap ammo with lots of availability and variety, ....and I have a .38 revolver that can swap ammo. I can't think of anything that I realistically will ever shoot that will not potentially drop with one decent shot from a .357 Magnum out of an 18" barrel, and I hear that the .44 Mag is not that fun to shoot anyway.
Lastly, I chose the new "trails end" because it has the 18" barrel and extended tube. I am told it was made for Cowboy Action shooting, for high capacity. Very cool! It holds 11+1 I believe, of .357 Magnum and a little bit more if I use .38 Special instead. The slightly longer barrel is not what I wanted, but I get a little longer sight radius and higher capacity. I like this rifle!
All of this comes at a price that I do not have to sweat over, I can throw it in my trunk, defend life with it if need be, not get branded as a whacko with an assault rifle if I use it, and not worry if it gets confiscated after it is used in defense.

I will keep my AR at home and the lever action will be my travel companion when I need a cheaper alternative. I think that the lever action is going to be a very useful weapon with practice. I like the fact I can reload it on the go, always trying to keep the mag topped off. Seems like it has a lot of tactical potential.

Thanks for all the ideas. Don't we all wish we had enough money to just buy "one of each" so these decisions would not be so tough.
 
Congrats!

Now buy a BUNCH of .38 spl and .357 mag, and practice.

But first: hold off long enough to let a 'smith give it a good trigger job (I already know what the factory trigger is going to be like in this litigous society), and put on just about anybody's receiver peep sight (you can do that yourself-- your rifle is pre-drilled and tapped). These two items will increase your accuracy hugely. Although many people don't like the ghost ring rear sights (I personally can't see why), it is indisputable that they add another 6" of sight radius on the same length rifle, and allow you to see more of the target, not having the rear blade bisecting your target by occlusion.

Practice hard with the .38 spl, and then become familiar with where your .357 hits at a given range. I'm all in favor of taping drop tables on the side of your buttstock for that odd long shot (>120 yds).
 
Thanks for the advice! Ths ghostring sight is a great idea! I don't know where to start looking for one, so how about giving me a brand name or something to start from, so I can try to find a ghostring sight for my new carbine. That sounds like an outstanding idea!
 
Ok, you seemed to indicate a rifle was the preference. But, whay not consider a shotgun, like the Winchester Defende? With the shortened barrel, and higher mag capacity, it's a natural. Besides I can't think of anything to make a thugs' cheeks pucker faster than a shotgun being racked. I have one who's explicit purpose is home defense, and that might include patrolling the property to see why the dogs are restless. And with a non-box mag, it's PC, or at least unitl it's not. You don't even have to really shoulder it, to cover the target liberally! Don't have to worry about errant projectiles exiting the walls, and striking the neighbors infant.

And, I've seen plenty of pic's of Riot Patrol LEO with shotguns in hand.

Best Regards,
Don
 
"Besides I can't think of anything to make a thugs' cheeks pucker faster than a shotgun being racked."

How 'bout seeing the muzzle flash from the receiving end? ;)
 
If you want PC, how about a Chainsaw? The Stihl model 17 Compact, with electronic ignition, a 1.6 HP gas engine, and a 12" bar should fit the bill nicely. It is a little heavy, at 8 1/2 lbs, but with the short bar is easily as maneuverable in tight areas as a rifle. As an added bonus, the sound of you firing up your chainsaw will drive all but the most dedicated criminals out of your house, especially if you rev it up a time or two. You can't underestimate the pucker factor of a chainsaw running at full throttle.

[This message has been edited by emcon5 (edited December 30, 1999).]
 
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