I need a Hawken rifle

You want FFG powder! FFFG burns too fast. gunslinger
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I second Wyosmith's comment that there is nothing wrong with using 3F in place of 2F in a musket. You will probably find that you can use less powder and get the same performance, since 3F burns more vigorously than 2F. Since 2F costs the same as 3F, this is a good money-saving move.

There's nothing wrong with liking or collecting or shooting military weaponry. I shoot competition in the N-SSA and the entire purpose of the organization is the competition shooting of Civil War-era weaponry, and most of them were designed and used as weapons of war.

Steve
 
That's why I was interested in getting a Civil War rifled musket at first, because they were used in combat and for some reason I find that interesting. But after seeing how much a quality P53 or 1861 Springfield costs, as well as the cost of .58 Minie balls and the scarcity of musket caps, and not to mention not being able to find any hard case long enough to fit them for under $300, I quickly sobered to the idea. The only range around me that allows BP is an outdoor one located on an Army base... and they require a hard, locked case for transportation.
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No doubt about it, BP shooting isn't cheap. You can figure about $.30 a shot. About it's only saving grace is the rate of fire is low so you can shoot all afternoon and only have spent $30 in ammo. You'll probably end up wanting to cast your own bullets, and if shooting anything other than round ball, size them, too.

There are shorter Civil-War era firearms, such as the P58 Enfield, the Enfield Musketoon, and the Richmond Carbine. Then there are breech loaders like the Sharps and Maynards, etc. However, new, these run $1000+.

But that Lyman GP seems like a low-cost way to get into the action.

Steve
 
There's nothing wrong with liking or collecting or shooting military weaponry. I shoot competition in the N-SSA and the entire purpose of the organization is the competition shooting of Civil War-era weaponry, and most of them were designed and used as weapons of war.
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...and I used to be a ACW and WWII reenactor. Enjoying military history is one thing, but not being
in the market for something that was just used to hunt with LOL!
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seems a little, odd. This guy seems to want a rifle just because it killed people. Maybe he needs to phrase things differently?
 
I've been shooting a Lyman Trade Rifle (percussion, 50 cal.) for several years now and can attest to the accuracy and dependability of the Lyman rifles. The Trade Rifle is a slightly shorter barreled version of the Great Planes. It easily rings the steel at 100 yds. And will put three balls within the size of a 1/2 Dollar @ 50 yds.from the bench. Favorite load is 60 gn. Goex 3F under a patched round ball. Will accept 90 gn. of 3F if you want more velocity. It does have a 1:42 twist barrel so it's a compromise for ball and conical bullets.
 
Sorry!

I should have rephrased this differently!

Shall I say, I enjoy firearms that were used in conflicts because I am deeply interested in the history of western expansion and the Civil War/other wars of the 19th century. I DO NOT want a rifle just because "it was used to kill people", that is silly. I was interested if the Hawken had any history as a fighting gun, that is all. I collect military weapons and civilian weapons that were used in conflicts.

To me that would just add to the rich history of an old gun like this to know it was used for more than hunting game animals. That's all I was trying to say and if this offended or confused anyone I am deeply sorry!

-M12Winny
 
It's been said about the Lyman G.P. rilfe " looks good enough to be an original " and I echo that.
If you can then save your pennies and buy a rifle from Wyosmith.
You will never regret it and you will never loose a dime should you sell it.
( if you sell it ....well, don't. )
I have 3 handbuilt flintlocks & spent about $600 to $1,000 bucks each & don't regret it one bit. When I show up at a range people always gawk and slober over them. (by Kieth Lisle a.k.a. birddog6)
I have a Lyman G.P. .54 cal. cap lock and can easily get 2 inch groups at 100 yards with Lymans peep sight & the rifle will do better, it's me that can't.
If you like check out:
www.midsouthshooterssupply.com
as the had the beest prices on the Lyman, I bought mine from there years ago.
Re: Powder. You might check out
powderinc.com
as they used to sell 5 pound lots of black & had 3 brands. I love Swiss best of all but it's now pricey & hard to find for me now.
I bought lots when I had money to spare long ago & still have 40 pounds stored.:D:D
I still have 2 T/C cappers & 4 cap'n ball revovlers.
I LOVE those pics of fine rifles built by Wyosmith!!!!:)
 
There are plenty of documented examples of Hawkens rifles being used in a fight do a little reading on Bridger, Cody … and you will find them

As to longer range of the muskets.
While there is truth to the higher casually rates being produced by the Minnie being applied in linear formation on the battle field . It doesn’t change the fact that in the hands of a true rifleman the range of those slow twist muskets , firing the Minnie was very capable of the max range and beyond . Both of which were well beyond the 300 yard range . Which so happens to be also within the range of a trained rifleman shooting PRB.
This should not be confused with applied linier formations on the battle field . What one is then talking about trained infantry which , isn’t in the same context even though they are also called rifleman .
Also for the price , I would agree that the Lyman is the way to go if your on a budget
 
if this offended or confused anyone I am deeply sorry!
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No offense and no apologies necessary. It just sounded odd the way you said things. I have been interested in history and historical firearms for almost thirty years. Like I said, I would say that pretty much all firearms have been used in an offensive/defensive role at some point. Kinda goes with the territory. You just seemed to put a lot of emphasis on the killing aspect of it.

Like others have said, the Great Plains rifle is a fantastic rifle. I have a percussion version in .54 cal. It's very accurate and it's hell on whitetail deer.
 
We regularly score 65-70% hit rates on hanging 2-liter bottles at 100yds during N-SSA rapid fire musket events.

But....

"A (rifle)man's just got to know his limitations...."

1236via.jpg


;)

.
 
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Don't limit your options

A single trigger is also wanted, I'm not a fan of double set triggers.
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Not sure why but it's certainly your call. I too would recommend the Lyman GreatPlaines and you can remove the "set" without too much trouble on this as well as any other. You don't have to limit your choices by going after a Single, just remove the double and you can always reinstall it, later . .... ;)

Enjoy and;
Be Safe !!!
 
I never said the Hawken was not used against Indians because sometimes it was but that wasn't its intended purpose.
 
First, get some books.
I am sure the folks here can recommend some.

Second, if you want a military weapon, get one.
The last GI roundball rifle I know of was the 1841 "Mississippi Rifle." You will have to look around to find a reproduction in .54 round ball caliber. Many originals were rebored to .58 for Minie balls and a lot of reproductions copy those probably because it simplifies their barrel inventory.
 
We regularly score 65-70% hit rates on hanging 2-liter bottles at 100yds during N-SSA rapid fire musket events.

But....
"A (rifle)man's just got to know his limitations...."
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Yes one needs to know your limits.
But 65-70% ?????? Come on
but then again your talking rapid for .IE volley type firing . IE not trained rifleman but trained infantry .

We are shooting quarter size groups , 50 yards and man size groups at 150-325 yards , off hand with PRB , with both flintlock cap lock , long rifles as well as plains rifles .
My navy Arms 3 band Enfield would hold a 8 inch group , from the bench at 300 and these guys are shooting close enough at 1000 to cove very close if not actually seriously mess up ones day with the smaller caliber volunteer rifles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-ZHXzMhiZg
 
But 65-70% ?????? Come on
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I'm not sure if your comment is saying 65%-70% hit rate is too good or not good enough.

I'd say it sounds about right.

Remember, N-SSA breakable target shooting is team shooting. It's a timed event, generally a 5-minute event with 5 or so shooters on a team. Remember also that the 100-yard events come after the 50 yard events. Often it is the last of 5 courses of fire.

It's tiring work, under pressure, and nothing like shooting individuals at a paper target where you have 15 minutes to put 5 shots in the target.

You can see our team stats here:

http://www.4thla.com/team_rankings_2014.htm

I'm #2 for Musket on our team and my average hit rate over both 50 and 100 yard ranges is only 45%. Our best shooter is 57%.

Steve
 
Alright gents! Well I think I'm going to get the Hawken in my OP, the Lyman GPR 32" bbl right hand with 1:60 twist for round ball. I can't wait!

BUT... I'm pretty sure I need some extra things!

I know I need FFG powder, .54 rounds balls, patches, and caps. What size round balls and what thickness of patch material should I use? Anybody have a recommendation on where to find materials for patch making? I will probably order the right size round punch and punch them out of whatever material, the same way how I make my cap n' ball revolver wads.

What about lubricant for the patches? Is it needed? Does it keep the fowling soft like the revolver wonder wads? How should I treat the patches I cut out with lubricant?

I am so sorry for all these questions! I am brand new to muzzleloading rifles and most places were I look only talk about the modern inline muzzleloaders.

Thank you so much! :D
 
See Post #4 above for the answer to each.every question, ;)

As far as patch source: Take your calipers and go to any sizable fabric shop. Ask for their "pillow-ticking" (there should be several bolts of different colors) that is 100% cotten. Pick that which is is between 0.018-0.020" thick, and get a yard of it ($7-8). DON'T try to pre-cut patches. Instead, cut it into strips "five [colored] stripes" wide to take those strips to the range.

To start (later you can play with the Water/NAPA cutting oil mix), load the powder then wet (not "soak") an end of the ticking strip in your mouth to produce a "spit patch." :D

Lay the wet/damp strip/patch end on the muzzle, then the ball on top of that, and smack it once with a soft hammer (rawhide's best) just enough to "stick" it in the muzzle.

Then using the contoured end of a ramrod jag, hammer the ball/patch combination down flush with the muzzle. Using a (very) sharp knife/razor, cut the patch strip off flush at that point.

Use the short starter to punch it down another 6", then the ramrod the rest of the way to the powder. [It will be smoothly stiff] Smack the ramrod end a few times at that point to ensure the ball/patch is firmly seated against the powder.

You are loaded.

.
 
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That's a lot of work if the Commanch' are circling the camp.

It reminds me of Rifleman Dodd who carried a mallet to encourage a tight ball in his Baker.
 
You can use a looser patch/ball combo and "do the fast hollywood loading" act, but at cost in accuracy.
The above (tighter) regimen takes about 30-35 sec, and you can substitute the short starter ball for the hammer if/when in the field.

(Keep the patch strip/knife technique though)






PostNote: The rifled musket was designed to avoid all of that.
- Pour the powder
- Ram loose/pre-lubed (crisco/beeswax) Minnie ball down the bore in one stroke.
- Cap and fire. (15 seconds start-to-finish)
Repeat as necessary to stop the Yankees. :rolleyes:
 
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