I heard about shooting with both eyes open
- Thread starter Red Dog
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echo7tango
New member
No, but it's not the same thing because the words on the page are at the same distance from the eye, so there's no parallax.
But with FS focus, my left eye is dominant because the FS is a nearby object. Parallax causes extra tgt images, which are in the range of my right eye that is dominant for far objects, and of the RS which is in the range of my near-sighted left eye that is dominant for near objects.
With tgt focus, my right eye is in control at all times. The extra images of the FS and RS, also caused by parallax, are readily ignored by my brain because they're seen better by my left eye. It's more natural to me because of the unique nature of my eyesight.
But with FS focus, my left eye is dominant because the FS is a nearby object. Parallax causes extra tgt images, which are in the range of my right eye that is dominant for far objects, and of the RS which is in the range of my near-sighted left eye that is dominant for near objects.
With tgt focus, my right eye is in control at all times. The extra images of the FS and RS, also caused by parallax, are readily ignored by my brain because they're seen better by my left eye. It's more natural to me because of the unique nature of my eyesight.
close one eye 
Consider closing 1 eye.
I don't mean to be the bad guy here, I'm just adding fuel for discussion.
Don't get mad at him for the heresy but Rob Pincus has a youtube video of his reasons why "both eyes open" may not be the gold standard in all situations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUy46J9IAOM&feature=plcp
They're pretty convincing reasons.
Personally I still haven't abandoned training myself to use both eyes although it does speed things up to squint or close 1 eye.
I don't think the analogy of "do you read with 1 eye closed?" is applicable- the "target" in reading is only on the surface of the paper. No alignment beyond that surface is needed. We can read words on a page directly facing us or if we're off to the side, above, below, push the book away from us a bit, etc. If I hold my pistol in place and take a step to the left I can still see the surface of my front sight with both eyes but neither of my eyes are in alignment with the sights and target. It would be a bit reckless for me to shoot if I cannot verify that the sights themselves are aligned with the target. Your eyes converge on the subject of focus - they do not point in a parallel line. It's as if two laser beams were intersecting. Proper alignment is important.
Consider closing 1 eye.
I don't mean to be the bad guy here, I'm just adding fuel for discussion.
Don't get mad at him for the heresy but Rob Pincus has a youtube video of his reasons why "both eyes open" may not be the gold standard in all situations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUy46J9IAOM&feature=plcp
They're pretty convincing reasons.
Personally I still haven't abandoned training myself to use both eyes although it does speed things up to squint or close 1 eye.
I don't think the analogy of "do you read with 1 eye closed?" is applicable- the "target" in reading is only on the surface of the paper. No alignment beyond that surface is needed. We can read words on a page directly facing us or if we're off to the side, above, below, push the book away from us a bit, etc. If I hold my pistol in place and take a step to the left I can still see the surface of my front sight with both eyes but neither of my eyes are in alignment with the sights and target. It would be a bit reckless for me to shoot if I cannot verify that the sights themselves are aligned with the target. Your eyes converge on the subject of focus - they do not point in a parallel line. It's as if two laser beams were intersecting. Proper alignment is important.
I only asked if he had to close one eye to read because he said he couldn't focus on the front sight with both eyes. It's about the same distance, so I wondered if he could focus on a page of text with both eyes.
When you focus on the front sight you HAVE to see two targets unless one eye isn't working. You also see two rear sights but they're much closer together, unless it's a peep sight not in the field of view of one eye.
I could understand how someone who has the target in focus with one eye and the sights in focus with the other would have troubles. I too, would recommend closing the eye that's not behind the sights. It's what I do as well. But it's the only method I've known.
When you focus on the front sight you HAVE to see two targets unless one eye isn't working. You also see two rear sights but they're much closer together, unless it's a peep sight not in the field of view of one eye.
I could understand how someone who has the target in focus with one eye and the sights in focus with the other would have troubles. I too, would recommend closing the eye that's not behind the sights. It's what I do as well. But it's the only method I've known.
Not necessarily, imo … your eyes are each sending a "picture" to the brain, which overlays the images using the focal points of each as it’s reference. The brain decides which parts of the conflicting images in the background is "true"… problem is, the "decision" is a combination of conscious and unconscious selection… further complicated by gaps in the field of view where the brain "fills in" the image we see.
Learning to control the editing process of the image we see, is one of the goals of sight training, imo.
Further, teaching the brain to ignore the part of the image from non-dominant eye which conflicts with the image of the dominant eye can be done through training. This would result in the double image of the target or sight (depending on your focal point) effectively disappearing, or fading into the background. … like an image from peripheral vision : technically, it might still be there but it might as well not be.
echo7tango
New member
Agree 100%, that's why I'll practice the 2-eye technique.
That's what I struggle with, for FS-focus with both eyes open, because of the eye dominance I described earlier.
In the end, after a lot more practice, I may decide to stay with closing the left eye. I am accurate that way, so it's a situation where "it ain't broke so why fix it?"
echo7tango
New member
Hey, Red Dog, what has been your experience as you try shooting with both eyes open? I wonder what you're trying, and what has / hasn't worked for you?
Tactical Jackalope
New member
I'm also from the school of both eyes open.
Best way to be! Unless you have one eye..
Best way to be! Unless you have one eye..
The Pincus video - he makes a lot of good points, but to nit pick a little:
his first "X" diagram can lead to confusion, imo…
The problem is exposed by the lines he doesn’t draw: The sight and target are in a line perpendicular to a line drawn between the eyes (ok so far) BUT this "sight line" intersects the "eye line" between the eyes, rather than meeting the "eye line" at the dominant eye…. This skews the results of the lines of vision that he does draw and places the target in the never-never land between the lines of vision for each eye. He then doubles and moves the target image where it is inline with each sight line. I think it would be less confusing if he were to draw the target, both sights, and dominant eye in a straight line … then draw the line of sight from the non-dominant eye, through the front sight, to the false image.
He also says that a long gun is completely different because it is "attached to your face". I disagree... mainly because the pistol should be employed as if it were also attached to your face…. Imagine the pistol as a rifle with the sights mounted to the last 6" or so of the barrel. This makes for more training … oriented towards what some would call "muscle memory" to make sure the pistol stays inline with the dominant eye.
I think the video is leading towards a valid method of engaging a target. However, I don’t think his way of discounting an alternate method is valid.
IMHO, We are faced with a set of obstacles in training. Different methods of training are typically a matter of choosing ; which obstacles are ones to overcome, and which ones we must work with or compensate for.
I really don’t think one method of training fits for all people, because different people can have different insurmountable obstacles.
IMO," both eyes open" also makes the pistol selection critical … the ergonomics of the pistol must fit the user nearly perfectly so that it’s a "natural pointer" for the individual. There’s no such thing as a universal natural pointer. Slight variations in the hands, arms, and other bits of biology can radically change what "fits". Even slight changes in a pistol’s grip, balance, etc., can change it’s "pointing nature" with respect to an individual’s biology.
Personally speaking, there are several pistols that I really like, but would never consider carrying for protection, because they don't naturally "point" in my hand.
his first "X" diagram can lead to confusion, imo…
The problem is exposed by the lines he doesn’t draw: The sight and target are in a line perpendicular to a line drawn between the eyes (ok so far) BUT this "sight line" intersects the "eye line" between the eyes, rather than meeting the "eye line" at the dominant eye…. This skews the results of the lines of vision that he does draw and places the target in the never-never land between the lines of vision for each eye. He then doubles and moves the target image where it is inline with each sight line. I think it would be less confusing if he were to draw the target, both sights, and dominant eye in a straight line … then draw the line of sight from the non-dominant eye, through the front sight, to the false image.
He also says that a long gun is completely different because it is "attached to your face". I disagree... mainly because the pistol should be employed as if it were also attached to your face…. Imagine the pistol as a rifle with the sights mounted to the last 6" or so of the barrel. This makes for more training … oriented towards what some would call "muscle memory" to make sure the pistol stays inline with the dominant eye.
I think the video is leading towards a valid method of engaging a target. However, I don’t think his way of discounting an alternate method is valid.
IMHO, We are faced with a set of obstacles in training. Different methods of training are typically a matter of choosing ; which obstacles are ones to overcome, and which ones we must work with or compensate for.
I really don’t think one method of training fits for all people, because different people can have different insurmountable obstacles.
IMO," both eyes open" also makes the pistol selection critical … the ergonomics of the pistol must fit the user nearly perfectly so that it’s a "natural pointer" for the individual. There’s no such thing as a universal natural pointer. Slight variations in the hands, arms, and other bits of biology can radically change what "fits". Even slight changes in a pistol’s grip, balance, etc., can change it’s "pointing nature" with respect to an individual’s biology.
Personally speaking, there are several pistols that I really like, but would never consider carrying for protection, because they don't naturally "point" in my hand.
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Been to the range trying this method twice.
All shots about 12ft.
This causes headaches.
Clear front sight fuzzy target = shots all over the place.
Clear target fuzzy front sight = shots all over the place.
I aim centermast and hit around the navel.
I had no consistency.
Tried to go slow and keep shooting form the same.
Paid attention to breathing patterns.
Finally:
No enjoyment, not happy with results.
All shots about 12ft.
This causes headaches.
Clear front sight fuzzy target = shots all over the place.
Clear target fuzzy front sight = shots all over the place.
I aim centermast and hit around the navel.
I had no consistency.
Tried to go slow and keep shooting form the same.
Paid attention to breathing patterns.
Finally:
No enjoyment, not happy with results.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
My immediate reaction is that it sounds like more of trigger control problem than a sight alignment problem. The bullet will go where the front sight was when the gun fired, but without proper trigger control, you are moving the gun off target just as it fires.Red Dog said:
The first principle of accurate shooting is trigger control: a smooth, press straight back on the trigger with only the trigger finger moving. Maintain your focus on the front sight as you press the trigger, increasing pressure on the trigger until the shot breaks. Don't try to predict exactly when the gun will go off nor try to cause the shot to break at a particular moment. This is what Jeff Cooper called the "surprise break."
By keeping focus on the front sight and increasing pressure on the trigger until the gun essentially shoots itself, you don’t anticipate the shot breaking; and that helps you avoid jerking the trigger. Of course the gun will wobble some on the target. No one can hold a gun absolutely still. Try not to worry about the wobble. Just focus on the front sight and concentrate on pressing the trigger smoothly to a surprise break.
Practice deliberately, making every shot count, to program good habits and muscle memory. Dry practice is very helpful. You just want to triple check that the gun is not loaded, and there should be no ammunition anywhere around. When engaging in dry practice, religiously follow Rule 2 - Never Let Your Muzzle Cover Anything You Are Not Willing To Destroy." As you dry fire, you want to reach the point where you can't see any movement of the sight as the sear releases and the hammer (or striker) falls.
Whether you hold the gun with one hand or two, and whether you use the sights or point shoot, if you don't have trigger control, your gun will not be in line with the part of the target you want to hit when the bullet leaves the barrel of your gun -- and you will miss. But if you have controlled the trigger properly, you will hit.
Think: front sight, press, surprise.
And also think about getting some good instruction.
Dragline45
New member
There are some real ignorant posts here. Not everyone is built the same way, it is not even close to the same as "do you read with one eye?". A buddy of mine shoots with both eyes open because that is what is natural for him and it works. I am completely incapable of doing so, tried over and over again, it just doesn't work for me. My pistol instructor who I took a few classes with shoots in competitions all over the country, even he said he tried to train himself to shoot with both eyes open but no matter how hard he tries he just shoots a whole lot better with one eye closed. Try telling a lefty to use his right hand from now on.
dwright1951
New member
Once you master both eyes open shooting try switching sides, if you are normally right handed try it left handed, whole nother skill set. Pistol is the easy one, rifle is next then shotgun is the hardest (at least to me). I've had to shoot several deer off my left shoulder (normally a righty).
Hi RedDog,
Bummer about the outing, big bummer.
I wonder if it just won't work for all people. Shooting with both eyes open really counts on 1 eye being dominant and that one is the one used for shooting. The other just fills in the peripheral vision (and supplies a faint double image that can be dealt with, with some practice). I did some reading and it appears to be indeed the case that some people are neutral (neither eye is dominant, in fact there are varying degrees of eye dominance), I saw the term ambi-ocular used. If this is the case, I would think shooting with both eyes open would be impossible as their would not be a faint second image, but a true double image and depending on which one you go with, the shots may go left or right. I'm not sure, but it would seem to me that shooting both eyes open requires you to be dominant in 1 eye and the greater your eye dominance, then the easier it is to master this technique.
It probably isn't going to be right for everyone. If that's the case, I'd just shoot one eye closed and forget about it myself.
Bummer about the outing, big bummer.
I wonder if it just won't work for all people. Shooting with both eyes open really counts on 1 eye being dominant and that one is the one used for shooting. The other just fills in the peripheral vision (and supplies a faint double image that can be dealt with, with some practice). I did some reading and it appears to be indeed the case that some people are neutral (neither eye is dominant, in fact there are varying degrees of eye dominance), I saw the term ambi-ocular used. If this is the case, I would think shooting with both eyes open would be impossible as their would not be a faint second image, but a true double image and depending on which one you go with, the shots may go left or right. I'm not sure, but it would seem to me that shooting both eyes open requires you to be dominant in 1 eye and the greater your eye dominance, then the easier it is to master this technique.
It probably isn't going to be right for everyone. If that's the case, I'd just shoot one eye closed and forget about it myself.
I'm not sure, but it would seem to me that shooting both eyes open requires you to be dominant in 1 eye and the greater your eye dominance, then the easier it is to master this technique.
I think that pgdion has a good point there. For me it was training that got me past the difficult part of using both eyes when shooting. I'm at the point now that I can switch eyes and switch hands easily including being cross dominate.
For me it’s the larger field of vision and better depth perception that shooting with both open makes it worth training for.
Training turned out to be very easy. It was suggested by a good friend that used to ride trains with Harry Truman. Take a cheap pair of sun glasses and tape over one side. This allows you to keep the weak eye open and will help from squinting and at the same time allows a clear view of the sights.
From his suggestion and after several hundred rounds I took off the glasses and I found it easy to keep both open and easy to center the strong eye on the sights. I have been doing that for the past 30 years.
Try it yourself, take an unloaded gun and hold it up with one hand and keep both eyes open. You will see a double set of rear or front sights. Then just bring your weak hand in front of your weak eye, you don’t need to cover it, just block the sights. The sights will easily align without squinting or closing the weak eye.
For me where it really helps is with eye fatigue and also scopes like Aimpoint’s.
Personally I don’t think that it’s impossible for everyone, but it can take some training and practice. But I do feel that being able to shoot with both eyes open will make you a better shooter.
I think that pgdion has a good point there. For me it was training that got me past the difficult part of using both eyes when shooting. I'm at the point now that I can switch eyes and switch hands easily including being cross dominate.
For me it’s the larger field of vision and better depth perception that shooting with both open makes it worth training for.
Training turned out to be very easy. It was suggested by a good friend that used to ride trains with Harry Truman. Take a cheap pair of sun glasses and tape over one side. This allows you to keep the weak eye open and will help from squinting and at the same time allows a clear view of the sights.
From his suggestion and after several hundred rounds I took off the glasses and I found it easy to keep both open and easy to center the strong eye on the sights. I have been doing that for the past 30 years.
Try it yourself, take an unloaded gun and hold it up with one hand and keep both eyes open. You will see a double set of rear or front sights. Then just bring your weak hand in front of your weak eye, you don’t need to cover it, just block the sights. The sights will easily align without squinting or closing the weak eye.
For me where it really helps is with eye fatigue and also scopes like Aimpoint’s.
Personally I don’t think that it’s impossible for everyone, but it can take some training and practice. But I do feel that being able to shoot with both eyes open will make you a better shooter.
Concealed_Karen
Inactive
Some VERY good discussion here and food for thought for my next trip to the range. I am a FS shooter but I agree with the thought "if I have time to aim, I will close my left eye. If I don't have time, I will keep them both open." I desperately need practice on my quick draw for the surprise defensive use. But if I am practicing for score, I contend that I will continue to use the method that feels most natural to me.
Thanks for all the video/instructional links - very enlightening!
Thanks for all the video/instructional links - very enlightening!
Strafer Gott
New member
US Army teaches point shooting with BB guns, at least that was the training they used in '71. I think today I'd use Airsoft. Much easier to see your round.
The Army used hand thrown targets. You can use whatever you have laying around, and not just sky shots either. Tie a tether ball on a tree for a swinging target. It doesn't take that many sessions to see some real improvement. It sure makes small game handgun hunting more productive.
The Army used hand thrown targets. You can use whatever you have laying around, and not just sky shots either. Tie a tether ball on a tree for a swinging target. It doesn't take that many sessions to see some real improvement. It sure makes small game handgun hunting more productive.