I have heard it said that IDPA can get you killed?
- Thread starter baddarryl
- Start date
Sarge, re post 12, well said. We are kindred souls. Hell, I sure don't have all the answers and never will, but I react to things I see happening that create bad habits and I always took my job as an instructor to mean I had a responsibility to keep good guys and gals alive.
Can we create the stress level of a gun fight? No way! But we can be responsible and not use training methods that won't be used on the street. And, as far as tactical reloads are concerned, if I'm down to 1 or 2 rounds in my magazine and have a chance to safely insert a full mag, I'm sure as hell going to take the opportunity.
Can we create the stress level of a gun fight? No way! But we can be responsible and not use training methods that won't be used on the street. And, as far as tactical reloads are concerned, if I'm down to 1 or 2 rounds in my magazine and have a chance to safely insert a full mag, I'm sure as hell going to take the opportunity.
Don't laugh too hard there and break a rib, sonny. KCPD was using a modified, speeded-up PPC course as their basic academy standard when I attended in '80. When the days shooting was over, we shot a yellow plow disc half-buried in the ground at 60+ yards (with double-action revolvers) to see who bought beer. Those boys could put a hurtin' on you across the street or across the bank parking lot... and did just that more than a few times.
A good shot is a good shot. Folks with sense know when to pour the speed on and when to slow down and make the hard shot. They know the difference between the static range and say, using a moving trash truck for mobile cover in order to escape a field of fire or flank an adversary. Folks without any sense need to take up another hobby.
MarkDozier
New member
I have to add my .5 cents. As a Damage Controlman (shipboard firefighting expert) we trained to the way we fought fires. As a civilian firefighter we trained the way we fought fires. I almost flooded a school (muscle memory) one time because we did not have a brief telling me to simulate.
The key here is mindset. You can not just reply on "muscle memory" you have to actively engage your mind to the correct mindset. When you are running and gunning your having fun. When you are in a gunfight you are there to stop the threat to life.
I am of the opinion if you can not have the correct mindset at the correct time you are already in a world of crap.
The key here is mindset. You can not just reply on "muscle memory" you have to actively engage your mind to the correct mindset. When you are running and gunning your having fun. When you are in a gunfight you are there to stop the threat to life.
I am of the opinion if you can not have the correct mindset at the correct time you are already in a world of crap.
I taught too but my approach was a little different. I held classes every Wednesday night and sometimes if enough wanted we got together on a week end. On the indoor range we were pretty much restricted to targets and scenarios but here is where I changed up the course.
I encouraged all my new shooters to buy a 22, I didn't care if it was a revolver or pistol and I didn't care if it was a single or double action as long as it was a 22. This allowed more shooting time for my police officers and deputies who had to provide their own ammo. We held live fire drills monthly with their duty weapons, usually with reloads so they kept the feel of the gun fresh in their hand.
My next change up was pulling surprise drills on them like putting their guns on the table and leaving them unloaded, step to the right or left and shoot your neighbors gun. I made them shoot strong hand, weak hand, from a sitting position and from behind a barricade left and right. I made them shoot standing on one leg leaning up against a pole or table for support or with their dominant eye patched.
Outside I added 'Fartlek' to the drill. Sitting, kneeling, prone belly down and prone on your backside at targets that moved like small balloons dangling from a string in the breeze. No limits on time or shots fired, they shot till the target was hit. The bouncing 2x4x4 block starting about 20' and shoot till it was on the 50 yard berm or to small to shoot at anymore.
I never had a student that did not qualify high at qualification time for their department and one set a high record for a rookie becoming the second highest qualifier on the sheriff's department. .380 or 45 or 22 or .357 or 9MM it didn't make any difference. When I got done with them it was sights and trigger breathe and squeeze. Bulls eye at 50' or 50 yards or golf ball at 10, 20, 40 yards. They got the idea that every situation was different but the end result was the same, the first good shot won, not the first shot and that speed came with practice not from trying to force it.
I had my detractors, mostly the older officers but results told, I turned out a lot of good shooters who didn't just spend a lot of time with two hands at 7 yards and they could do it with other guns not just the one they ordinarily carried.
I encouraged all my new shooters to buy a 22, I didn't care if it was a revolver or pistol and I didn't care if it was a single or double action as long as it was a 22. This allowed more shooting time for my police officers and deputies who had to provide their own ammo. We held live fire drills monthly with their duty weapons, usually with reloads so they kept the feel of the gun fresh in their hand.
My next change up was pulling surprise drills on them like putting their guns on the table and leaving them unloaded, step to the right or left and shoot your neighbors gun. I made them shoot strong hand, weak hand, from a sitting position and from behind a barricade left and right. I made them shoot standing on one leg leaning up against a pole or table for support or with their dominant eye patched.
Outside I added 'Fartlek' to the drill. Sitting, kneeling, prone belly down and prone on your backside at targets that moved like small balloons dangling from a string in the breeze. No limits on time or shots fired, they shot till the target was hit. The bouncing 2x4x4 block starting about 20' and shoot till it was on the 50 yard berm or to small to shoot at anymore.
I never had a student that did not qualify high at qualification time for their department and one set a high record for a rookie becoming the second highest qualifier on the sheriff's department. .380 or 45 or 22 or .357 or 9MM it didn't make any difference. When I got done with them it was sights and trigger breathe and squeeze. Bulls eye at 50' or 50 yards or golf ball at 10, 20, 40 yards. They got the idea that every situation was different but the end result was the same, the first good shot won, not the first shot and that speed came with practice not from trying to force it.
I had my detractors, mostly the older officers but results told, I turned out a lot of good shooters who didn't just spend a lot of time with two hands at 7 yards and they could do it with other guns not just the one they ordinarily carried.
Good stuff, Grump. I particulary like your use of random small targets, bounced out to the 50.
I actually had 12 years where I didn't have to run the show, so I got to shoot whatever was thrown at me. One of the change-ups that outfit used was to hang a couple of waferboard dummies, dressed in old clothes, which we engaged after moving down a hallway as a two-man team. Those dummies had a softball-sized ballon where the heart and head should be... and if you didn't flatten one, you lost the fight. I was carrying a Sig 220 in those days and took a little ribbing from the rubber gun crowd, but I got to give it right back when I'd zap their balloon-zombie while they were changing mags.
I actually had 12 years where I didn't have to run the show, so I got to shoot whatever was thrown at me. One of the change-ups that outfit used was to hang a couple of waferboard dummies, dressed in old clothes, which we engaged after moving down a hallway as a two-man team. Those dummies had a softball-sized ballon where the heart and head should be... and if you didn't flatten one, you lost the fight. I was carrying a Sig 220 in those days and took a little ribbing from the rubber gun crowd, but I got to give it right back when I'd zap their balloon-zombie while they were changing mags.
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"I think it is a myth to think people in the past, before I was born, had more experience shooting pistols before they entered law enforcement than they do now."
In my earlier post, I never mentioned experience shooting pistols. I only mentioned that more people had firearms experience, hunting and plinking. Even someone with a good amount of rifle and shotgun hunting experience will have an advantage learning to shoot a handgun compared to someone with no experience with any guns at all. Mark
In my earlier post, I never mentioned experience shooting pistols. I only mentioned that more people had firearms experience, hunting and plinking. Even someone with a good amount of rifle and shotgun hunting experience will have an advantage learning to shoot a handgun compared to someone with no experience with any guns at all. Mark
That's what I thought but you should have heard some of the names they had for me the first few times I pulled that on them. Then they started getting it and some preferred the oddball drills to just standing there and shooting bulls eyes on their two hind legs. Wasn't all my idea though, I had a couple of really good coaches and a lot of handgun hunting time in the desert to hone my own skills. My first international match and my first PPC match also got me to thinking that there was more than just one way to get lead on a target.
Thank you for your comment, Mr. SG29736. It probably isn't all that relevant to the current thread but I always find it interesting what people thing things were like before they were born. While it may be likely that many people may have had hunting and shooting experience, say, before WWII, it doesn't follow that big city police departments were able to recruit from that body of men. In small town and rural areas, it would have been a different story.
It is very likely, I think, that the better shots in police and sheriff's departments may have brought with them some prior experience but it is just as likely perhaps that those experiences would frustrate their firearms instructiors. Hard to say, really. Then there is the question of whether or not it made them better policemen--or just better pistol shots.
It is very likely, I think, that the better shots in police and sheriff's departments may have brought with them some prior experience but it is just as likely perhaps that those experiences would frustrate their firearms instructiors. Hard to say, really. Then there is the question of whether or not it made them better policemen--or just better pistol shots.
Been a police FTO for decades. I will always take a trainee with firearms experience, over one with none.
Yes, you occasionally have to correct problems but that's what I'm doing anyhow. I often have to correct errors in basic technique, from officers who have just graduated a four-month academy--including range time--who still can't shoot well.
The bigger cities' police departments have always paid better, had better benefits, furnished more and better equipment and offered more adventure. They've never had any trouble at all attracting trainees from rural areas.
Yes, you occasionally have to correct problems but that's what I'm doing anyhow. I often have to correct errors in basic technique, from officers who have just graduated a four-month academy--including range time--who still can't shoot well.
The bigger cities' police departments have always paid better, had better benefits, furnished more and better equipment and offered more adventure. They've never had any trouble at all attracting trainees from rural areas.
Steviewonder1
New member
I have shot USPSA/IPSC for the last 20 years and have taken 5 Gun Fighting classes in the last 3 years. I do not subscribe to the IDPA process (11 rounds in gun or less) but have shot it a few times. In the gun fighting classes I always shoot to slide lock and reload the gun. I can shoot on the run, strong hand and weak hand at targets out to 30 feet with no issue. Anything more than that and I am going to cover. I carry more than 10 rounds in my guns and do not limit myself in what I can shoot. I recently did a "Shoot with SWAT" from my local PD Group at an Indoor Gun range where there was 3 courses of fire to shoot for their local charity. I shot at the top of my group or near the top of the list. Some folks came with no holsters or mag pouches! The SWAT guys said all the PD team was Pro 2A and wished that there was more CCW in the community! Now that is an attitude from those that protect us!
Jim Watson
New member
What a lot of people forget is that IDPA was organized during the AWB when a 10 round magazine was the largest you could buy over the counter. They have stayed with it after "sunset" so their classifications, CoFs and procedures would be consistent. Also so the membership in repressive jurisdictions like California and Canada that still have magazine limits could be competitive.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
I agree that the mag limit doesn't reflect the guns but it isn't that bad to get some repetitive practice of mag changes. After shooting IDPA for a bit, you get them on fast automatic.
If you want 200 round mags - shoot IPSC -
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If you want 200 round mags - shoot IPSC -
.Competition shooting will not get you killed if you get in a real fight. What makes people lock up is paralysis by analysis. Train, have a plan, be able to make a plan.
I am a retired LEO (USBP) and competitive shooter. I shot PPC, was on the Ft Worth PD Pistol team, I shoot IDPA. I get penalized every match for breaking some IDPA rule. I shoot IDPA because it is great fun, trigger time and all day with other gun guys and girls.
While I was working (ok I am still working, just for a different master) I used my duty gun and duty ammo (H&K P2000 40 with hot 155's). Now I shoot what is fun, Glocks, revolvers, whatever.
Competition is NOT training, cannot replace training, however, it CAN supplement training.
Retaining mags is not always stupid in SD, nor is a reload of a partially loaded gun. If you have fired any rounds getting to cover, you probably do not know how many rounds you fired. Before you break cover to move to other cover or to keep from being flanked, you should reload. IDPA rules state that you must be behind cover to reload, hmm sounds smart to me.
I am a retired LEO (USBP) and competitive shooter. I shot PPC, was on the Ft Worth PD Pistol team, I shoot IDPA. I get penalized every match for breaking some IDPA rule. I shoot IDPA because it is great fun, trigger time and all day with other gun guys and girls.
While I was working (ok I am still working, just for a different master) I used my duty gun and duty ammo (H&K P2000 40 with hot 155's). Now I shoot what is fun, Glocks, revolvers, whatever.
Competition is NOT training, cannot replace training, however, it CAN supplement training.
Retaining mags is not always stupid in SD, nor is a reload of a partially loaded gun. If you have fired any rounds getting to cover, you probably do not know how many rounds you fired. Before you break cover to move to other cover or to keep from being flanked, you should reload. IDPA rules state that you must be behind cover to reload, hmm sounds smart to me.
can shooting IDPA get you killed?
I shoot both IPSC and IDPA fairly regularly and shoot PPC about once a year. IPSC and IDPA are best considered skill building exercises that have some training value and can be very entertaining. Any competitive event, of necessity, will not be able to duplicate the dynamics of a real gunfight.
But, depending upon the course of fire, there CAN be training value in the process, if you are shooting the IDPA classifier or an IPSC classifier that measures basic marksmanship and gun-handling skills. Some IPSC assault courses totally lack any connection to reality and are best avoided IMHO, but classifiers and most IDPA courses of fire are at least semi-realistic in the marksmanship skills that are required in that course of fire.
In such competitions I've most often always used whatever my duty gun was at the time. (Currently it's a Sig 226R-DAK in .40 cal.)
I'm more interested in getting trigger time than in shooting the matches as a competitive activity. Of course, I'm not particularly fast, so if I WAS attempting to become the next USPSA champion, I'd be way out of luck . . .
In general I prefer the course design philosophy of IDPA. However, I've been shooting IPSC on a sporadic basis at the local level since 1978, and I've become more involved recently since some of the local clubs have been regenerated.
I particularly like the USPSA Classifiers and the IDPA Classifier match as methods to test basic skills. Also, several of the local IPSC clubs have LOTS more steel and movers and bobbers and so forth than what we have available at the police range, so the courses of fire they use on match days are much more innovative that what we can do during in-service training at the PD.
There was a similar thread on one of the other forums a few years ago, and one poster had an interesting thought that kind of mirrors my philosophy -- he takes IDPA more seriously and competes in IPSC as a sort of structured practice session.
You'll get out of it what you put into it. Be safe and have fun with it. At the very least, shooting in matches can show you which skills to need to practice more . . .
Many clubs are now on the web and some post the course descriptions for upcoming stages on their web site. If clubs near you do this, you'll find this to be very useful. I don't look at the courses of fire in advance to figure out a "game plan" on how to shoot the course, but rather to get an idea of what skills I might need to practice before the match. (practice strong hand only and weak hand only shooting to start with, and engaging multiple targets from behind high & low cover)
Also, some clubs are more practically oriented, and some have more members who shoot purely as a competitive activity (usually the IPSC shooters, BUT NOT ALWAYS) and by looking at posted courses of fire you can determine which orientation the club has and if the matches they run have any value for what you're trying to accomplish. (Sometimes I'll look at the posted courses for one of the local clubs and if three out of five stages are "run & gun" assault courses [which don't fit in with my philosophy very well] I'll just go do something else that day . . . )
Competitive shooting certainly has the potential to help you increase your marksmanship and gun handling skills, depending upon what kind of matches you're shooting. It can also certainly train you into bad habits, just as focusing too much on speed, jerking the trigger, and forgetting to look at the sights . . . you have to be mindful in everything you do if you want to maximize the skill building potential of that particular activity.
I shoot both IPSC and IDPA fairly regularly and shoot PPC about once a year. IPSC and IDPA are best considered skill building exercises that have some training value and can be very entertaining. Any competitive event, of necessity, will not be able to duplicate the dynamics of a real gunfight.
But, depending upon the course of fire, there CAN be training value in the process, if you are shooting the IDPA classifier or an IPSC classifier that measures basic marksmanship and gun-handling skills. Some IPSC assault courses totally lack any connection to reality and are best avoided IMHO, but classifiers and most IDPA courses of fire are at least semi-realistic in the marksmanship skills that are required in that course of fire.
In such competitions I've most often always used whatever my duty gun was at the time. (Currently it's a Sig 226R-DAK in .40 cal.)
I'm more interested in getting trigger time than in shooting the matches as a competitive activity. Of course, I'm not particularly fast, so if I WAS attempting to become the next USPSA champion, I'd be way out of luck . . .
In general I prefer the course design philosophy of IDPA. However, I've been shooting IPSC on a sporadic basis at the local level since 1978, and I've become more involved recently since some of the local clubs have been regenerated.
I particularly like the USPSA Classifiers and the IDPA Classifier match as methods to test basic skills. Also, several of the local IPSC clubs have LOTS more steel and movers and bobbers and so forth than what we have available at the police range, so the courses of fire they use on match days are much more innovative that what we can do during in-service training at the PD.
There was a similar thread on one of the other forums a few years ago, and one poster had an interesting thought that kind of mirrors my philosophy -- he takes IDPA more seriously and competes in IPSC as a sort of structured practice session.
You'll get out of it what you put into it. Be safe and have fun with it. At the very least, shooting in matches can show you which skills to need to practice more . . .
Many clubs are now on the web and some post the course descriptions for upcoming stages on their web site. If clubs near you do this, you'll find this to be very useful. I don't look at the courses of fire in advance to figure out a "game plan" on how to shoot the course, but rather to get an idea of what skills I might need to practice before the match. (practice strong hand only and weak hand only shooting to start with, and engaging multiple targets from behind high & low cover)
Also, some clubs are more practically oriented, and some have more members who shoot purely as a competitive activity (usually the IPSC shooters, BUT NOT ALWAYS) and by looking at posted courses of fire you can determine which orientation the club has and if the matches they run have any value for what you're trying to accomplish. (Sometimes I'll look at the posted courses for one of the local clubs and if three out of five stages are "run & gun" assault courses [which don't fit in with my philosophy very well] I'll just go do something else that day . . . )
Competitive shooting certainly has the potential to help you increase your marksmanship and gun handling skills, depending upon what kind of matches you're shooting. It can also certainly train you into bad habits, just as focusing too much on speed, jerking the trigger, and forgetting to look at the sights . . . you have to be mindful in everything you do if you want to maximize the skill building potential of that particular activity.
Not as surely as only lesiurely shooting at big round circles or leaving your gun in the safe and never shooting it.
Familiarization with your equipment is a very good thing, and more is better. Add in some stress and time pressure, decision making on the fly .... what is bad about that?