I have a question for the war supporters..

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Danzig

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So far we have had more than 3,400 American servicemen and women die in Iraq and tens of thousands more have been wounded.

My question to you is this: How many more of us have to die for this cause that you believe in?

I hear people say too often that the death of a single American Soldier is too much..well, we have far surpassed that.

So how many American lives are you and your president willing to sacrifice for your cause? 3,500? 4,000? 5,000? 10,000? How many of my brothers and sisters have to die needlessly for a cause that most of us do not even support?
 
Danzig - First and foremost, THANK YOU for your service to this great nation. Your sacrifice allows me the freedom and opportunity to have a dialog with you on this topic. That doesn't necessarily mean that I'm going to agree with you, though. :)

Danzig said:
How many of my brothers and sisters have to die needlessly for a cause that most of us do not even support?
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There are many, many families who have had brothers and sisters, fathers and mothers, sons and daughters pay the ultimate cost for this cause that THEY believe in. Just because you do not, doesn't mean that "most" do not. Aren't you belittling their sacrifice by calling their deaths needless?
 
This is what the "elite" thought of me 38 yrs ago and it's what they think now. Need I say more?


"American soldiers are dumb animals to be used in the furtherance of 'our' foreign policy. Today, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order. Tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told that there were an outside threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated,' that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this 'scenario', individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the World Government." -Henry Kissinger

badbob
 
Danzig: Are you so estranged from America that you call the PResident "your president"? Isn't he your president as well?
 
It's not going to get any better while we are still there.

We thought we were doing the right thing and we gave it our best shot but it's up to the Iraqis now to set up their own nation(s). If they want a civil war there is nothing we can do (or should do) to stop it. Almost every free nation on the planet has had a civil war (including us). Iraq's number has come up as the result of a multitude of factors religious, political, foreign, and domestic.

We need to support a huge, independant Kurdistan in the north so that we may have a friendly and strong nation on the Iranian border. The British can set up Kuwait part-2 in al Basrah and the Sunni chunk of Iraq can go to the hell of its own choosing. The Saudis will at least take care of hummanitarian aid to that stain upon the fertile crescent.

Thanks for doing what you could, Danzig. I appreciate it and I bet the Kurds do too.
 
I hate to get dragged into this kind of thing, but I don't see how we can abandon Iraq. They are now are ally. In WWI Britain lost 7,000 per week for four years merely holding up their end of an alliance. Honor should still mean something. Each death is a personal loss, but we would have the blood of our allies on our hands as well if we left them now...as I believe we have the blood of more than 1 million South Vietnamese on our hands.
 
No Vito..He's not my president. I had no hand in his election. In fact, I opposed it twice. He's presidency has been imposed upon me. He is merely the elected leader of the country in which I was born and live. I await the time when a true supporter of the Constitution will once again sit in the White House.

As I have sworn an oath to follow the orders of the President of The United States, I have no choice but to acknowledge him as the Commander in Chief. But nowhere have I signed on to acknowledge that dictator as my President.

I love my country. There is none other like it in the world. But I hate the government and there have unfortunately, been many like IT.

To others: I am a Staff Sergeant. There is no other rank that works more closely with the soldiers of all ranks. I know what I hear from them and it is NOT the same as the lies that are constantly spread by the Bush Administration and it's many supporters. The soldiers I know and talk to do NOT support this conflict. They believe that the President does not care for them at all and that he is so intent on his own agenda that he does not care what anybody else thinks. They believe that we are stuck in a situation that cannot be one. They are tired of being separated from their families for a cause that is not theirs. They are sick of missing being able to see their children grow up. They are sick of George Bush and his failed policies.

I know Sirs, what I hear..and I DO NOT hear the soldiers supporting this war or this president no matter what lies you may be hearing.
 
We lost more men on the day we stormed Normandy than we have in this entire war. Does that make those peoples lives more important than the ones we lost now? No. My point is, I work with Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans. Their view is that we were right in going into war. Some of the reasons, using HINDSIGHT as 20/20, were wrong, but the whole is right. How the troops are able to fight ie. "Rules of Engagement", is completely wrong.

Like it or not, IMHO, we need to finish it up...the old fashioned way. Iraqis troops seem to not want to put their best effort collectively.

I support the war, just not on how it's done. It's performance is evaluated by politicians, negatively by liberals from the get go which didn't help much, and shouldn't be. The top brass should make decisions without being under a microscope. My opinion is if it was this way to begin with, the war would have been over in a year in Iraq, with roughly the same casualties, and most troops would be home by now...

"How many of my brothers and sisters have to die needlessly for a cause that most of us do not even support?"

All due respect Danzig, but if you didn't want to support the war, why did you go in? I appreciate your service, but I have a hard time thinking most of you not supporting the good that has become...

Soldiers die needlessly? Your lives may be important, but no more important than the ones that don't get massacred by the former dictator...
 
And to answer another question, Yes. The 3400 plus Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, and Seamen who have died have died as needlessly as those who died in the World Trade Center Bombing. What have their deaths accomplished? Nothing. Iraq was MORE dangerous the second time I was there and it will be even worse when I return. Things are getting worse in Iraq, not better. George W. Bush wasted their lives on nothing.

And if I die over there..it will be doing my job and I will not shy away from it..but it also will have been for nothing.
 
So, all of the new roads, schools, actual plumbing in homes, electricity in homes and business built was needless? The 3400 plus that died for a nation to have a chance to have a country like ours?

I don't agree...

Just because I don't choose my boss, doesn't mean I can't deny he's the boss of me...

Dictator? He's done quite a few things that I disagree with, but I don't see Bush raping children and tossing 15,000 of them in a ditch and burying them...

If you think your service is/will be done for nothing, then I guess you've already made up your mind. No sense in giving my opinion anymore. I don't want to add anymore for I don't want to come across as disrespecting the OP.

All the best, Danzig. And thank you for serving anyway...
 
Good question Tuttle. Why did I join the military if I hate the war? First, I was in the army long before we invaded Iraq in March of 2002. I have no problem at all with military service. I'm about to hit my ten year anniversary in the Army. I have to problem going to war. I have no problem crushing, without mercy, those who attack The United States.

That is not why I enlisted but it is why I have stayed. I am here to defend the lives, property, and freedom of my family, friends, and neighbors, be they in the next home over or in a remote corner of The United States.

But that is not what I am doing.

I and my fellow servicemembers are being used as pawns in a failed bid to support the worst foreign policy in the history of my country. I did not sign on for this.
 
Tuttle...all of those things are simply the putting on of a bandaid on a gunshot wound...or putting lace all over a stinking pile of feces. You can't dress this up with a few good works.

But the billions of dollars we are spending on Iraq should have been spent in OUR country anyway. Yes Iraq was broken. But it's not the responsibility of the American people to pay for improvement's in Iraq. And it surely isn't our responsibility to fight and die for the people of Iraq.

But for anyone who thinks it's a cause worth your lives..I welcome you to pick up a rifle and fight this battle. What? Too many of those who vocally support this war aren't willing to risk their lives for their beliefs.

Perhaps they lack the courage of their convictions. But they surely are willing to let OTHERS die for those convictions.
 
There are many, many families who have had brothers and sisters, fathers and mothers, sons and daughters pay the ultimate cost for this cause that THEY believe in. Just because you do not, doesn't mean that "most" do not.
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Do you know that they believe in the cause? Or are they supporting a loved one and honoring his/her choice of duty?

Aren't you belittling their sacrifice by calling their deaths needless?
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Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman would disagree as to who is actually doing the belittling. If Danzig is speaking from experience, I am inclined to agree with him.
 
Danzig, as an enlisted Vietnam veteran and retired Reserve officer, I hope
that at the end of your current enlistment you leave the military and find
an occupation which does not subject you to divided loyalties and the angst
you so clearly suffer. George W. Bush was twice elected President of the
United States, the second time by a huge majority of both the electoral and
popular vote, he was only "imposed" on the people who do not believe in
the idea of democracy and if you cannot adhere to the Oath of Enlistment
then clearly the military is not for you. I retired during the Clinton administration because I decided I could not in good conscience serve a governement whose policies I disapproved and a Commander in Chief for whom I had-and still have-nothing but contempt.
 
Is it truely a civil war, to me that means a part of the country trying to break away and form thier own goverment. I don't see that, I just see a bunch trying to disrupt and destroy the goverment that even now forming.

They are not offering a differenent goverment, or putting forth their own leaders to be elected, they seem to just be killing, to kill, to disrupt, to terrorize, to kill any one they don't like.


As for dying needlessly, only history will determine that. Will Iraq be a better place because of what we have done. Again History will judge. Will the world be a better place, again History.

The overthrow of Saddam, a good thing. The death of Saddam and his boys a good thing. Trying to create a stable friendly democray in the Middle East, a good thing.

How about those that died trying to free Europe twice, did they die needlessly, how about keeping half of Korea free, needless. A lot of people said those conflicts were none of our concern either.

I too have been on the front lines (Somalia Aug 93 to Dec 93), did my friends die needlessly because that country is still in chaos and turmoil. To most people it is just a number, to others we know names, and faces and even what beer the guy drank.

I do not think the time and what I lost was wasted, I was angry for a long time at Clinton and his cronies though.

I cannot even begin to answer that question, How many? It is an stupid question, designed to enrage and show callous attitudes towards our troops.

The question should be is what we trying to do worthwhile? Will the world be a better safer place (especially for the US) if we succeed?

People will say, that it is not possible to change the situation, history says it could never happen. Well that is what people probably said when we broke away from England. "Those stupid colonists, they cant beat Brititan, the Empire will crush them, and we will hang the lot of them."
 
To be fair..I do know a handful of individual who support the continuance of the war.

For example, I have a friend, a fellow Staff Sergeant. He just bought himself a new house. He's pretty happy with it. But about two weeks ago we learned (from our wives no less!) that our brigade won't be leaving in August as we had been told. No..we won't be leaving for quite a while. My friends comment? That the only reason he bought the house was because he thought we would be leaving in the fall.

Understand that last time we were deployed we brought home almost another $1000 per month.

He was hoping for that money to make his mortgage payments. This bothers me very much..he, and many like him, don't support the war for it's own sake..but they surely want the money that they get for deploying. Their attitude is very...mercenary.

Hey..that's it. Perhaps the government should use mercenaries to fight wars that have nothing to do with the best interests of the U.S. citizenry!

Maybe King George can use Hessian mercenaries...oh wait..sounds like a repeat of history.. Didn't work out so well when the other King George tried it either. And you know what they say about those who don't remember their history.

Hey..if the damn Iraqis want freedom and are worthy of it..they should have picked up their rifles and fought their own damn revolution like our forefathers did!
 
"Yes Iraq was broken. But it's not the responsibility of the American people to pay for improvement's in Iraq. And it surely isn't our responsibility to fight and die for the people of Iraq."

Alright, I'll bite. Maybe you view it as not being our responsiblility. But, I don't see in good conscience that we fat, dumb, and happy FREE people with houses you can call an actual home, driving two decent cars, having land you can call your own, and can call the leader of the country you're a citizen of a name that should be treason, sit here while others across the world are REALLY dying needlessly by numbers we can't count, more less 3400 plus...

"But for anyone who thinks it's a cause worth your lives..I welcome you to pick up a rifle and fight this battle. What? Too many of those who vocally support this war aren't willing to risk their lives for their beliefs."

Believe me, Danzig I would have. But my father has seen and suffered enough to ask of me not to serve, ever. This was in 1991. I, at the time, respected his wishes. I do to this day. I hate it, but my word to my father is worth more than anything. By the way, he's probably seen more carnage than most can say in today's war.

"Perhaps they lack the courage of their convictions. But they surely are willing to let OTHERS die for those convictions"

My father suffered immense pain for over 30 years physically and mentally before his "untimely" death. He believed he suffered enough for his sons not to go. Did he support the war he was in? Yes. Did he support the war we recently entered? Yes. After all of that, he said there's few things more honorable than dying for a stranger to have a chance to have the same freedoms that he so enjoyed.
 
It would be inhumane to just pick up and leave as many people in this country want to do. But the sheep that they are will always follow without thinking. :barf:

You think the the bombings, killings are bad now it would be a slaughterhouse over there between the sunnis and shiites and al queda battling for control if we left. Second with nothing but terrorists over there vying for control you have now just gave the terrorists a country to set up shop in.
 
SlGSHR

It sounds like you did an honorable thing. I would be inclined to go that way but I fear it's to late to do that for myself. This enlistment will put me at 15 years..and I will be 41 (yeah..I enlisted late) Too late to try and start over from scratch..and with 15 years in it seems a bit foolish not to stick out the last five and at least collect "reduced wages for reduced service"

And I can always hope that the next administration will use us as we are meant to be used..as Homeland Security.
 
My question to you is this: How many more of us have to die for this cause that you believe in?
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This question has nothing to do with the answer. If the issue is important enough to invest our resources and American lives, then how many die matters not.

To insinuate that there is an amount of lives that suddenly tips the scales from a worthy objective to a needless one implies that, once that number is reached, all the deaths before that were truly wasted.
 
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