I have a few reloading questions

[TruthTellers]

1. Can I load less powder than the suggested starting charge?

I like to stay within published data, but for low weight bullets, I like a really light load. Take for instance .32 H&R Mag. I'm testing out light loads for lowest velocity possible. Yes, I know .32 S&W Long will accomplish that, but in the very near future I'm getting the Henry .327 lever action and I've heard that .32 H&R runs fine in the lever gun, .32 S&W Long may not.

2. Case bulges/buckling during reloading

I've noticed that when I load brand new, never fired brass that the cases are being distorted more than fire formed brass. Is this normal? I have shot some of my handloads with slightly distorted cases before and had no issues, but those that are very noticeable I toss.

3. Do I have to strictly abide to OAL in published handbooks?

So I have some 75 grain bullets that I'm loading in .32 H&R and my Lyman 50th manual says 1.350" OAL, but if I were to load it to that length, a large amount of the bullet would be sticking out and I wouldn't be able to crimp on the crimp groove.

In the past I've seated the bullet to the crimp groove and that makes the OAL under what is called out for. Again, not had an issue doing this, but I just want to ask.

 

[jetinteriorguy]

1. I wouldn't load below starting loads, I shoot a lot if fairly stout ammo through my .357 Henry BBS and it feels like I'm shooting a .22. Very light recoil and very accurate out to 100 yds.
2. Do you resize your new brass ? You should.
3. I always seat any revolver round to the crimp groove, especially if using it in a lever action. I also use a substantial crimp to avoid bullet setback in a lever. Suggested OAL is more or less just a length not to exceed, not an absolute.

 

[kraigwy]

1. Can I load less powder than the suggested starting charge?

I suggest not. The theory says, with fast burning powder, such as bullseye, in loads below min. the powder can law in the case where instead of burning as recommended the primer can ignite all the powder increasing pressure. I've never seen that, but I do know with light loads in larger cases, the powder at rest isnt consistent, so your accuracy and velocity will also not be consistent.

2. Case bulges/buckling during reloading

Thats quite common with straight wall cases. When a case is sized, it often ends up with the inside of the case smaller then the bullet there fore you get the bulge.

Simple fix, get a Lee Carbide Crimping die. The Lee die has a carbide ring at the bottom. When the loaded round goes in the die, it crimps and maybe leaves a bulge. When the case is pull back out of the die, that carbide ring resizes everything and gets rid of any bulge that may be there.

3. Do I have to strictly abide to OAL in published handbooks?

Published OAL is a guide not law. Load the bullet to suit you. Your goal (or should be) is reliable, safe, and ACCURATE ammo. Set the OAL to fix your needs.

It should fit the magazine if one is used. It can be longer if you single load. And it has to be safe. You can gain accuracy SOMETIMES, by seating the bullet where it engages the rifling. That may or may not cause dangerous pressure. You may want a bit of a jump, or bullet travel before he engages the rifling. How much would depend on where you get the best accuracy.

You cant always depend on reloading manuals because they came up with the date in their rifle, you're using it in your rifle'

For example I loaded some SMK 80 bullets for my AR for a 1000 yard match. This was the first time I used the 80 gr bullet. It has to be loaded longer then the normal 223 round. It wont fit the mag. but in such matches thats not a problem because you have to single load anyway.

I used Sierra's recommended OAL for this bullet. After the 3 rd shot, I detected a wind -CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED- (it died down) so I decided to wait it out. I didnt want my round setting in a hot chamber so I extracted round. It left the bullet stuck in the chamber. I didnt have a cleaning rod with me to get it out, (I was use to M14s and never needed one), so I ended up 70 pts down for that string.

I backed off a few thousands from the suggested OAL and never had that problem again.

 

[Unclenick]

Pistol loads with fast powders can be loaded down to about 30% fill of the powder space under the bullet with no worries. The phenomenon Kraigway refers to is more commonly a slow powder problem in cases that provide long powder spaces. For these situations 70% case fill is a safe number. For example, Alliant says the .45 Auto 185 grain GDHP starting load of Bullseye is 5.8 grains, but literally generations of conventional pistol target shooters have used 4.2 grains behind 185 grain JSWC's to mimic commercial match ammo. And with lead, everything from 3.2 grains to 4.2 grains has been used in the .45, depending on the range. When you look at a .45 Auto cartridge and find the bullet base position from the slight bulge it makes, you can see the powder space is often no taller than it is wide. The same will be true for your .32 Long's when you use wadcutters seated nearly flush with the case mouth.

When you get to slower powders, you are looking at a different animal in that lack of adequate powder can lead to incomplete ignition and bullets stuck in the barrel. Beefier loads of slower powder is where you concern yourself more with under-loading. That said, I make it a rule never to load handguns below about 30% case fill with even a quick powder, and I try to keep slow powder loads and rifle loads at 70% fill or greater to avoid erratic ignition.

If you are buckling cases, it usually means you have the crimp shoulder of your crimp die set down too far. Back the die body out a quarter turn and turn the seating ram's stem in deeper to compensate. If that removes too much crimp, turn the body back in an eighth of a turn and raise the seating ram to compensate. See if that dosn't clear it up.

 

[TruthTellers]

The bulging seemed to be occurring during bullet seating, which I found odd because I belled the mouth out a lot to keep the sharp case from cutting the lube from the bullets.

I did use the crimp die and that seemed to also cause bulges too, but that was probably due to having too much crimp.

 

[Don Fischer]

You can load well below min charge depending on the bullet you use. Find a source for cast bullet's. Then go with a cast bullet manual. In my 38 and 32 Long all I shoot are cast bullet's, very nice shooting. All I use in my 308 at this time is also cast bullet's and got a lot of data from the Lee manual. It get's some pretty high velocities from heavy bullet's, 180 gr, but at the velocities I haven't got any kind of decent velocity. Drop down to 1800 +/- fps and velocity improves greatly. Shot these same bullet's from my 30-06 with Red dot powder and go small amounts of Red dot, super group's with very. Recoil get's dow to 22 LR area.

My 38 and 32 Long are very very nice to shoot!

 

[T. O'Heir]

The Henry .327 is a .327 Federal, not the H&R Mag. The H&R can be fired in the Federal chamber but not the reverse.
1) No. Aside from low velocity defeating the idea of a magnum cartridge, below minimum loads can be as dangerous as over max loads. If you want low recoil use a cast bullet like the 77 grainer listed on Hodgdon's site. I think you can use .32 S&W Long loads in the Magnum cases like you can .38 loads in a .357 case too. Not sure though.
2) Sizing die isn't set up correctly. Like you've seen, slightly distorted cases will be fixed upon firing. Isn't really a big deal.
3) You can forget the crimp groove. The only issue with revolver cartridges is the OAL being so long the bullet sticks out into the cylinder gap and stopping rotation. The 1.350" is the SAAMI Max OAL. SAAMI minimum is 1.300". Anything in between will do.

 

[TruthTellers]

I think you can use .32 S&W Long loads in the Magnum cases like you can .38 loads in a .357 case too. Not sure though.

This would be ideal.

3) You can forget the crimp groove. The only issue with revolver cartridges is the OAL being so long the bullet sticks out into the cylinder gap and stopping rotation. The 1.350" is the SAAMI Max OAL. SAAMI minimum is 1.300". Anything in between will do.

I'm currently using 4 grains of Unique, which is the starting load for the bullet weight in the Lyman manual I'm using and OAL is 1.280". A little bit shorter than minimum, but it is a minimum charge as well.

 

[HiBC]

You would get more specific data if you had a load manual from your bullet co.
Lyman publishes a lot of cast bullet data.
There are little booklets,"Loadbooks" that are a cartridge specific compilation of loads from several load manuals.

Odds are good if you are using Speer bullets and you look at the Speer load manual at the 32 H+R page you will get an LOA that will be appropriate to your crimp groove. At low pressure loads you will(probably) be ok seating deeper.
Be aware that with moderate to heavy loads ,the combustion chamber volume...the powder space,has a significant effect on pressure.Its not about the bullet point,its about the bullet base.
In this specific instance,I don't think its an issue. Deep seating bullets on full power loads can get you in trouble.

When you want lower vel loads,no problem,but look at the recommended powders.Look at the velocities. Different powders perform at different velocities. They will still give a recommended start load for low vel loads.
I'd suggest paying attention to the minimum recommended.Its there for a reason.
In any case,I suggest you not try to load below about 700 fps.

With your crimps: Try just screwing the die body down to just remove the bell,for now. Lock it down. Screw the seater punch in to get the bullet crimp groove just where you want it.You do not want it to completely disappear. You crimp into it..Seat them all.
Now,back off the seater punch,and crimp as a separate step. Ease the die body down a little at a time till you get a nice roll crimp. Lock it down and crimp.
After you get that down,we'll talk about doing it in one step.

 

[ShootistPRS]

Powders vary in the way they ignite and with how much uniformity.
Unique was used for years in large rifle cases with lead bullets because it is less sensitive to position in the case. TiteGroup is another of these powders that can be reduced below a listed starting charge. It is not position sensitive at all and you will likely stick a bullet in a revolver barrel or experience failure to feed in an auto-loader long before any other problems associated with light charges. On the other hand, slow pistol powders like W296 or H110 (same powder different labels) you should not reduce the loads below the starting load unless you enjoy risking serious damage.

 

[HiBC]

And H-110 is a full power 32 H+R propellant.

The reason I suggested approx. a 700fps minimum has to do with cowboy shooters pushing for low recoil down in the 600 fps range tend to get stuck bullets.FWIW,if you find the minimum load for a short revolver barrel,you may be unpleasantly surprised when you try it in a rifle.It might get stuck.

Really,as a beginning reloader,I suggest you try to stay with published loads,both min and working up to max.Stay on the pavement instead of exploring the barrow ditches. 800 fps with what? a 75 gr bullet? The recoil shouldn't bruise you too badly.

Its best to not substitute components. I'm not saying you will blow your gun up if you use another brand of bullet...but things will work the way they are supposed to.

 

[Unclenick]

The bulging seemed to be occurring during bullet seating…

A photo of what you mean by a bulge would help. I don't know whose dies you are using, but most seating dies have a crimp shoulder in the die body. So, again, if you have the die body screwed in too far (they are not supposed to contact the shell holder like a sizing die does) you can be running the case mouth into that crimp shoulder too hard and bulging or buckling the case.

If you are using a separate die for crimping, try backing the seating die body out a turn and turning the seating depth adjustment in to compensate. This will leave you with no crimp at the seating station. Then adjust your crimp die separately to remove the bell and add any degree of crimp you want. If you have enough recoil, you will need some crimp to keep the bullets from backing out in a revolver. With slower powders like 296/H110 in the magnum loads, the crimp also helps keep start pressure uniform.

If you are not crimping separately, back the seating die out a turn and put a resized case in the shell holder and run the press ram up all the way. Turn the seating die in by hand until you feel it touch the case mouth. If you are crimping in the same die, then adjust the body in enough to crimp, tighten the die body lock nut and go back and redo your seater stem adjustment with the die body in this new position. The Lee help video describes this well.

 

[ShootistPRS]

I looked at my Lyman 49th edition and it lists 71, 85, 90, and 100 grain jacketed bullets.
In cast bullets it lists 75 and 85 grain bullets.
The 75 grain cast bullet is loaded to 1.35 over all length which puts the crimp in the first groove from the nose with a case trimmed to 1.065".
You don't say whether your bullet is cast or jacketed but it does make a difference the 90 grain JHC bullet is seated to an OAL of 1.315 yet the 71 grain FMJ is seated to 1.35". You also don't mention the powder you are using and that can make a difference too. other things that can make a difference are the case manufacturer (different capacities), and your trimmed length. We has assumed that you are using brass that is between the trim to length and maximum length along with the same case and primer listed in your manual. It would really help to know what components you are using.

 

[hdwhit]

TruthTellers wrote:
1. Can I load less powder than the suggested starting charge?

It is generally not a good idea. The minimum/starting charges are there because they are the smallest charge that will reliably function in the majority of guns that use a particular cartridge.

2. Case bulges/buckling during reloading

When compared to previously-fired brass, new brass will be softer and more vulnerable to distortion. Even though a lot of new brass comes from the manufacturer at about the appropriate dimensions for loading, try running it through a sizer die. If it is already at the appropriate size, then running it through again will not work harden very much, but it may get everything uniform enough to avoid your problem.

3. Do I have to strictly abide to OAL in published handbooks?

Well, if you read the entry for the 9mm Luger cartridge in the Speer Manual (page 385 in the case of the 11th edition) you will see where in discussing bullet set-back they observed that bullets seated just 0.030 inches deeper (yeah, that's 30/1000) essentially doubled the chamber pressure.

Speer's experience with the 9mm was not the norm, but the problem is that unless you have a pressure transducer, you have no idea how much you will increase pressure by seating bullets deeper.

Not all bullets work in all cartridges.

If you have bullets that you have to intentionally seat deeper to get to the crimp groove, it may be time to get different bullets or get data from a reputable source as to how much to adjust your load to compensate.

 

[TruthTellers]

To update some things:

Using Starline nickel plated brass and Hunter's Supply 76 grain cast bullet.

I do using a crimping die. I do not crimp with the bullet seating die. I prefer to do that in a separate operation.

So far all my reloading is with revolver cartridges. Referencing automatic cartridges is irrelevant for me.

ShootistPRS, check my other posts in this thread.

 

[ShootistPRS]

Unique is not a position sensitive powder. The starting load listed in the manuals is rarely a minimum load. Sierra uses a percentage of the maximum load as a starting load. I was told by them that they do not test for minimum loads. I don't know about other data for sure so it may or may not apply with Lyman. I always test loads below the listed starting loads with my auto-loaders to see where the will cease to function, Since I use H110 in my 357s I haven't played with the load since I developed it 36 years ago. Since the revolver will always function, up to the point where a bullet is stuck in the bore I would be very cautious working the load down from the starting point. Lead bullets require less pressure to pop them out the business end.

 

[reddog81]

I wouldn't try going much lower than start when using jacketed bullets. Lead bullets have more leeway since they have a lot less friction moving down the barrel. The problem with real light loads is inconsistent velocity and a failure to seal the case in the chamber, causing blowback and real sooty cases. You'll experience this before sticking bullets in the barrel. At least those are my experience with relatively fast powders.

For OAL length in revolver loads I always crimp into the crimp groove. Unless your pushing the envelope with your charges, OAL shouldn't be a problem.

 

[TruthTellers]

I shot those handloads today. Can't speak to how accurate they were as my .32 revolver and its fixed sights are off by about a foot at 50 yards in both windage and elevation, but they all went boom, no signs of pressure issues, extracted very easy, and chambered easy.

The only odd thing I noticed was that these nickel plated Starline cases didn't want to chamber in a .32 Magnum 12 gauge adapter I have, but some once fired and resized brass cases would. It could be that these cases are on the long side. IDK, didn't measure them.

I'm going to clean these cases and load them this weekend. I'll update this thread to see if I get any more bulges with once fired brass.

 

[jetinteriorguy]

You said that the bulging/buckling occurs during seating, and that you use a lot of flair. My guess is the extra flair is possibly putting too much pressure on the case as it's going into the die mouth. Try using just enough flair to just barely allow the bullet base to just start going in the case. Plus, too much flair is just overworking the brass and will lead to premature failure, especially with nickel plated brass which is harder than regular brass.

 

[Unclenick]

Yes. Lyman M die for a stepped flare that will hold the bullet straight upright as it enters the seating die. A Redding Profile Crimp die will prevent crimp-induced bulging (see below), if that's what you have. Without a photo, I can't be sure it it's what you have.