I carry 9mm ball ammo. Do you think that is irresponsible?

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There is no need for a "beating". It is well documented that 9x19mm JHP ammunition performs better in the role of personal defense against humans than FMJ. I do not believe this can be disputed given the body of research into this topic.

Your ammunition choice is a personal one. You must be prepared to pay the consequences should you use the gun in self-defense regardless of ammo used. All you are doing is changing the odds of a favorable outcome; 9mm FMJ may be EXACTLY what was needed for that fight. Conversely, it could be the wrong ammo based upon the circumstances. You will not know until after the fight.
 
There's no logical reason to use FMJs unless you just can't afford the extra cost of JHPs.
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there is a logical reason to use ball ammo in .22LR, .25acp, .32acp and even .380, and 9mm Makarov.
9mmx19, .40, and .45 would likely benefit more from heavy HP's since they generally have enough energy to penetrate deeply enough even with an expanding bullet.

It's very likely in a SD situation, that you could potentially have to have your ammunition pass through your attackers arm(s) then ribs, and then at the very least penetrate 4-6'' past that to reach vitals. It'd be preferable to have the bullet traveling, still, and have enough energy to pass through and/or break the spine, for an instant stop. It's likely that expanding ammo in weaker calibers will not have sufficient penetration.
I'll take the slightly smaller hole, if it can guarantee that my rounds will penetrate deeply enough. 9x19 and 'up' you start losing efficiency with ball ammo, and JHP takes the advantage because it can usually penetrate sufficiently while also making a bigger hole.
 
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JD0x0 said:
Theohazard said:
There's no logical reason to use FMJs unless you just can't afford the extra cost of JHPs.
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there is a logical reason to use ball ammo in .22LR, .25acp, .32acp and even .380, and 9mm Makarov.
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Well, that's debatable when it comes to .380 and 9mm Makarov, but I see where you're coming from. But I didn't feel a need to qualify my statement considering this thread is specifically about 9x19mm ammo.
 
If the "driver" for the decision is actually performance based, there is no good reason to use anything but a premium-quality JHP round, preferably one which meets IWBA/FBI standards.

Which such a choice, there really is very little chance of under-penetration.

Of course FMJ will "do the job", but unless price is the driving factor, there is just no good reason to go there.

It should be noted that a lot of FMJ ammo is meant for target practice. As such, it is not manufactured to the same standards of consistency, neither is it inspected as carefully as duty-rated rounds. Because of this, by using FMJ you may be introducing a somewhat higher chance of failure-to-fire or other ammo-related malfunctions.
 
"FMJ's actually expand when they hit hard surfaces, and transfer energy on impact."

Yeah....

SOMETIMES they do...

I've dug 9mms and .45s I've fired out of dirt banks and they've looked more than good enough to load and fire again.

Dirt generally tends to be a bit harder than FMJs...

In fact, I've dug my 250-gr. .45 Colt bullets out of hard packed dirt and they've been absolutely pristine.

You simply cannot depend on hardball ammo to expand at handgun velocities if it hits anything less than masonry or metal.
 
...even the NYPD carried and used in gunfights their 9mms with FMJ.
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This changed after the shooting of Amadou Diallo, who was shot 19 times with FMJ ammo and didn't collapse until a bullet severed his spinal cord. This is a good article about the forensic wound ballistics testimony in the case - http://www.nytimes.com/2000/02/11/nyregion/devastating-wound-came-late-diallo-defense-contends.html

(NYPD switched to JHP ammunition shortly after the Diallo shooting due to its overall poor experiences with FMJ ammo.)

Humans are VERY fragile and stop what they're doing quickly after holes are poked in them with either FMJ or HP bullets.
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"The selection of effective handgun ammunition for law enforcement is a critical and complex issue. It is critical because of that which is at stake when an officer is required to use his handgun to protect his own life or that of another. It is complex because of the target, a human being, is amazingly endurable and capable of sustaining phenomenal punishment while persisting in a determined course of action." -- Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness - http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf​
 
I once shot a rabid skunk FIVE TIMES with FMJ before it died. The rounds obviously went very cleanly through the animal with a minimum of damage. Pretty much what you'd expect from the extensive ballistics tests and real world field reports on 9mm FMJ.

If you carry a gun that doesn't reliable ignite quality ammo, it is not the right gun for carry.
 
How much energy is there in a handgun bullet if it over penetrates and exits?
Are there any reliable test references as to the amount of energy left in a bullet after it passes through animals or people?
 
This changed after the shooting of Amadou Diallo, who was shot 19 times with FMJ ammo and didn't collapse until a bullet severed his spinal cord. This is a good article about the forensic wound ballistics testimony in the case
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And there is no way of telling if the result would not have been the same if JHP ammo was used.

I once shot a rabid skunk FIVE TIMES with FMJ before it died. The rounds obviously went very cleanly through the animal with a minimum of damage. Pretty much what you'd expect from the extensive ballistics tests and real world field reports on 9mm FMJ.
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All that tells you is that you hit it in the wrong place. One FMJ round in the right place would have done the job.
 
manta49 said:
Derbel McDillet said:
This changed after the shooting of Amadou Diallo, who was shot 19 times with FMJ ammo and didn't collapse until a bullet severed his spinal cord. This is a good article about the forensic wound ballistics testimony in the case
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And there is no way of telling if the result would not have been the same if JHP ammo was used.
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This is definitely true, but it's also an irrelevant statement: With a sample size of only one you never know exactly how much difference it would have made, and in which direction. There are always statistical outliers, so that's why using one shooting as an example doesn't make much sense no matter what the results were. There are cases of people taking multiple well-placed .357 Mag hits before they finally go down, and there are cases of a single .22 LR dropping someone instantly. That doesn't mean a .22 LR is a better defensive round than a .357 Mag.

But, given a large enough sample size, it will take fewer shots on average to stop someone with .357 than a .22 LR. And it's the same with 9mm JHPs over FMJs: the JHP will take fewer shots on average than a FMJ will (though of course the difference isn't anywhere near as big).
 
Right now I have 300 grain jacketed soft points loaded in my Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt. Not an ideal defense gun and not an ideal load. But if the bad guys stand in line, I figure one shot will drop at least three of them.
 
And there is no way of telling if the result would not have been the same if JHP ammo was used.
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There are still cases where people wont go down after getting hit with a bunch of hollow point ammo. It's kind of funny, as often when I'd hear news reports about this, they mention or say something about the ammo 'failing' because it didn't stop the threat quick enough. Meanwhile, it was the shot placement that failed, not the bullets. It seems many people think that HP's are magic bullets that turns a 9x19 into a .338 lapua with expanding ammo.
 
less overpenetration

is an oxymoron.

the normal human body is 8 inches thick. the fbi minimum standard is for the bullet to expand in the denim coat and still penetrate 11-13 inches of tissue.

If you DONT get an exit hole you have bullet failure of any sane fbi test ever devised.
 
If you DONT get an exit hole you have bullet failure of any sane fbi test ever devised.
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FBI tests don't account for bone.

How come just about every police shooting video I've seen there were no exits? Police use ammo that must pass the FBI tests if they're putting it in officer's service weapons, yet, more often than not, no exit wounds. Why? Because COM shots often have to pass through rib bones twice to exit.

FBI tests more or less will show you what happens with a gut shot, as there's mostly soft flesh in the abdomen. The 10-14'' minimum, with the normal human body being 8'' (I'm closer to 6'' fwiw) is likely to compensate for the lack of bone density in the FBI test gel and also to give you some wiggle room in case you do have to go up against a larger than average human.
 
Wow.

I try to avoid these discussions any more, the amount of mistaken ideas and information that surfaces still surprises me for some reason.

I'd suggest that those that think RN and in particular FMJ RN loads are decent or effective killers haven't killed much with them, even small game. RN loads are nothing short of pathetic on game killing compared to decent expanding bullets or a good SWC load.
 
dogtown tom what would you call it then?

it expands transfering more energy in to a target vs poking through retaining more of that energy, right?
 
Do you think that is irresponsible?
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I don't think I'd go so far as to call it irresponsible, but it's not the best choice you could make, in my opinion.

9mm ball really delivers when it comes to penetration. Figure on about 2 feet of penetration. That can be a good thing or a bad thing...
FBI tests don't account for bone.
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That's a little bit misleading. While the FBI tests don't specifically include bone in their testing, most of the trials in their testing protocol involves the bullet having to penetrate some sort of intermediate barrier (glass, sheet steel, wallboard, and plywood). Therefore, while ballistic gelatin is really only designed to replicate muscle tissue, the FBI penetration figures incorporate not only ballistic gelatin penetration, but also penetration through other barriers (some a good deal more stressing than bone) in addition to the ballistic gel.

Furthermore, even the FBI protocols, as much as they stress penetration, put a top limit of 18" on their penetration spec. 9mm ball should definitely be expected to penetrate beyond the top limit specified by the FBI.

All that aside, IMO, the biggest benefit provided by expanding ammunition is that it makes it more likely that the subject will realize he's been shot. Most stops are psychological in nature and a pre-requisite for a psychological stop due to being shot is for the subject to realize that he's been shot.
When you shoot someone with a service pistol you are basically running them through with a pool cue.
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That's more or less correct although it is true that temporary cavity from service pistol caliber handguns can cause permanent damage in non-elastic tissues.

Even with expansion, if you assume that the permanent cavity is all the damage that's done by a handgun bullet, you're only talking about 2.2-3.4 oz. of tissue destroyed on average per round. Those figures are calculated from the entire range of the common service pistol calibers. 2.2-3.4oz is only 0.1% of the mass of a 180lb person.
 
If we were having this discussion 20-30 years ago or if your gun was chambered for a small "pocket gun" cartridge like .22 Long Rifle, .25 Auto, or .32 Auto then I might agree with you or at least concede that your argument has merit. 20-30 years ago, about the only way to get reliable expansion out of a 9mm without exceeding the pressure limits of the cartridge was to use a light-for-caliber bullet at relatively high velocity. Unfortunately, the combination of the mass (or rather lack thereof) of these bullets and the rate at which they shed velocity while expanding meant that they usually didn't have enough momentum to penetrate to desirable levels.

Likewise, small "pocket gun" cartridges simply cannot drive a heavy enough bullet fast enough to both expand reliably and penetrate adequately. Like the older 9mm JHP loadings, one is usually forced to choose between expansion or penetration.

Today, however, the 9mm is a very different animal. Most premium JHP loadings like Winchester PDX1, Federal HST, or Speer Gold Dot can both expand with boring reliability and easily meet the FBI's penetration standard of 12+". Because of this, I see little reason to give up the advantages that a JHP offers when there are so few disadvantages.

About the only ways that I would choose to rely on FMJ 9mm ammunition for self-defense would be if I lived in a jurisdiction where the use of JHP ammunition was illegal or if my gun could not reliably function with it. Now, if JHP's are against the law where you live, there's not really all that much you can do but carry FMJ, practice a lot, and hope it's enough. If your gun cannot reliably function with JHP ammo, however, I'd argue that it's time to look for a different gun as handguns which will shoot JHP ammunition with monotonous reliability are neither difficult to find nor particularly expensive. As a matter of fact, my experience has been that many older guns which were designed and manufactured long before expanding bullets became popular are much more reliable with JHP ammo than many give them credit for.

Barring those two specific circumstances, however, I see very little reason to choose 9mm FMJ ammunition for self-defense. While I don't know that I would go so far as to classify such a choice as irresponsible, I do think that, for the vast majority of circumstances, it is an uninformed and ill-advised choice.
 
Of course not.

Each of us should evaluate what best fits our intended purpose and prepare accordingly. Personally, I prefer hollow points but that's just me. If fmj is more suitable for your application, then that's what you should carry.
 
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