I carry 9mm ball ammo. Do you think that is irresponsible?

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Pops1085

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Hey guys just wondering if we can have a sane, mature conversation about this. I know it's an old topic, fmj vs hollow points, but I just want to talk about it anyways and share my thoughts. The reason I carry fmj over premium hollow point ammo is because there are pro's and con's to everything and I think the pro's of shooting fmj outweigh the con's of some hollow points.

I know that with good hollow points the likelihood of the bullet penetrating too much is reduced and that a larger hole is well, better. However, I feel like the issue of over penetration is over exaggerated a bit. I think any bullet that has enough power to penetrate into somebody enough to hit vitals has more than enough energy if not placed in the ideal spot to travel through them and hurt somebody behind them. I think the key to avoiding shooting somebody that you don't intend to is to at least TRY to think about what is beyond your target. But let's be honest, in a real situation where you have exhausted all other options and have decided shooting somebody is your only way to survive that encounter, your ability to think about anything at all is severely hampered.

To get back to my point I believe that with fmj you will very rarely have the issue of not penetrating enough. I'd rather have a bullet go in and through vitals of whatever I'm shooting vs not make it to them at all. Further more, unless you are in a crowded area the odds of you hitting somebody else are not as extreme as some think. I know that in the several thousands of rounds of fmj that I have put through my particular gun I've only had a few malfunctions and were either a light powder load or a bad primer. I can't say I've had the same luck with these higher quality hollow point rounds. Now that's not to say hollow points are bad! If I found a particular round that I never had a malfunction with, I wouldn't care if it was hollow point or not. I'm just saying the rounds I've had the most luck with are your run of the mill fmj's and because of that, it's all I carry as of now. Anyways I'd like to hear your thoughts on why you disagree or agree with me on why I should or shouldn't carry fmj's in a carry gun.
 
i think jhp would be a much better bet...i honestly think the overpenetration issue is blown way out of proportion, but would choose jhp for the better dump of energy when you hit the target vs a fmj that just "cuts through" so to speak
 
I know it's an old topic, fmj vs hollow points, but I just want to talk about it anyways
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Then you know how the conversation will end.

To get back to my point I believe that with fmj you will very rarely have the issue of not penetrating enough. I'd rather have a bullet go in and through vitals of whatever I'm shooting vs not make it to them at all
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It isn't about penetration as much as improved destruction in the wound channel.

Here is the same discussion from last week...

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=547256&highlight=fmj
 
Pops1085 said:
Hey guys just wondering if we can have a sane, mature conversation about this. I know it's an old topic, fmj vs hollow points, but I just want to talk about it anyways and share my thoughts.
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Well, by all means, let's rehash the same arguments.

Pops1085 said:
I know that with good hollow points the likelihood of the bullet penetrating too much is reduced and that a larger hole is well, better. However, I feel like the issue of over penetration is over exaggerated a bit. I think any bullet that has enough power to penetrate into somebody enough to hit vitals has more than enough energy if not placed in the ideal spot to travel through them and hurt somebody behind them. I think the key to avoiding shooting somebody that you don't intend to is to at least TRY to think about what is beyond your target. But let's be honest, in a real situation where you have exhausted all other options and have decided shooting somebody is your only way to survive that encounter, your ability to think about anything at all is severely hampered.
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Your word choice shows your "irrational" decision making. You take established fact on one side, and weigh it against "feel" and "think."

1085 said:
To get back to my point I believe that with fmj you will very rarely have the issue of not penetrating enough. I'd rather have a bullet go in and through vitals of whatever I'm shooting vs not make it to them at all. Further more, unless you are in a crowded area the odds of you hitting somebody else are not as extreme as some think.
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I don't think anyone will argue that a factory 9mm would have any issue of underpenetration, except in very very rare and unusual circumstances. Again, however, you are arguing against facts with beliefs. What evidence do you have that a 9mm will underperform?

Pops1085 said:
I know that in the several thousands of rounds of fmj that I have put through my particular gun I've only had a few malfunctions and were either a light powder load or a bad primer. I can't say I've had the same luck with these higher quality hollow point rounds. Now that's not to say hollow points are bad! If I found a particular round that I never had a malfunction with, I wouldn't care if it was hollow point or not. I'm just saying the rounds I've had the most luck with are your run of the mill fmj's and because of that, it's all I carry as of now. Anyways I'd like to hear your thoughts on why you disagree or agree with me on why I should or shouldn't carry fmj's in a carry gun.
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FINALLY, an actual reason not to carry HP ammo. Sorta.

Buddy, in reading your post, your primary arguments are based on opinion and not really any measurable reaction. Your biggest argument for carrying FMJ ammo is that you haven't found any that has been 100% reliable. In your entire post, that was the only quasi-legitimate reason I found, which almost makes all the arguments before it look like rationalizations for your carrying FMJ ammo.

The fact is this: hollow point ammo is a better, more effective round for concealed carry in all of your "duty" calibers (9mm and up) with some question in terms of the 45 ACP. Your problem is not the ammo, but probably your weapon. If I was a gambling man, I'd bet your "failures" with your gun were failures to feed. In my experience, if you have a gun that won't feed HP reliably, but FMJ works fine, you might need a different HP ammo. I suggest a box of Hornady Critical Defense- the bullet is pointed enough that most semi-autos feed them very well.

Let us know what kind of gun you have, and what kind of ammo you've tried, and maybe we can help you find something your gun likes.
 
I think even a yellow-label 147 grain JHP is an excellent compromise in this caliber. It's your gun and your money, do whatever you want.
 
get ready

Hey Pops.

Your're gonna take a beating on this so prepare yourself. But I will freely admit that I have on more than one occasion carried FMJ ammo in SD pistols, in both 9mm, .40, and .45 and never felt particularly undergunned.


"Over penetration" may well be over rated. A very high percentage of slugs fired by LE and civilians in SD, do not hit the perp and go sailing off into distance. You do not hear a great deal about those slugs mowing down innocents. I base that on stats kept by the big PD's across the country. Cops are not the best of shots. The lack of collateral wounding is hopefully the result of officers being conscious of the location. There are places that are simply no shoot locations. And while you may be able to shoot, what about the possibility of return fire from the assailant. What's/who is behind or near you.

If a situation is bad enough that I have to worry about over
penetration into a bystander, it is likely not a place where we need to have a gunfight. As we cannot pick those places, retreat or avoidance in that instance may well be the best, dare I say only, tactic.
 
9mm hardball was a proven man stopped in a submachine gun with fast mutiple hits.
From a pistol it won't work that way.
Good h.p. ammo is the only way the 9mm defesnive handgun should be utilized.
There's tons of info on this on the internet.
Wahy not avail yourself of the gobs of information out there & go with good h.p. ammo?
 
Sure, FMJ bullets will work. But, on average, they won't perform as well as JHPs. Period. That's really not debatable. There's a reason why virtually every law enforcement agency in the country uses JHPs (I say "virtually" because there might be a few that don't, but I've never heard of them).

To me, the penetration issue isn't as important, but it's still a plus. So to sum it up, JHPs perform better and are less likely to over-penetrate. So why in the world would you not use them? Any halfway-decent modern defensive handgun should feed most brands of JHPs as reliably as FMJs.

Also, it's easy to find premium JHP ammo, whereas most FMJ ammo is lower-quality range ammo. In my handguns I've had far more stoppages with FMJ range ammo than I've had with quality JHP ammo.
 
FMJ will work. You will have to be careful in your shot placement and background, but even the NYPD carried and used in gunfights their 9mms with FMJ.

Deaf
 
And in ten round magazines because the commish of that era was wedded to revolvers and afraid that an automatic might lead to wild shots.

I am only confident in FMJ in my old Commander, but then it is a .45.
 
Use whatever you feel comfortable using, if that's FMJ fine. Penetration is the most important quality. As for overpenetration I hear people talking about it but see very few real life examples.
 
I shoot full metal jacket in all of my pistols, totally reliable and have not had one bad guy tell me I should have used HP ammo :-)
 
This is 2014, not 1970. There are no downsides to using HP ammo. The better stuff will penetrate virtually the same and give you good expansion. Reliability is exactly the same.

Not irresponsible, just not the best option.
 
I pack whatever I have on hand. I would rather use a bullet designed for maximum expansion and penetration around 18 inches. But I pack what I have. I would not want to get shot with anything. I worked as a medic for 20 years. Seen lots of gunshot wounds. I pack mainly a.45 with hornady critical defense. But I also pack a .22sometimes, use what ya want. But there is a balance with penetration vs expansion, shot placement etc.... There will always be a debate on all this. If anyone tries to tell you how wrong you are about using one ammo or caliber over another. Just do what I do. I tell them this is my gun on my hip. If my ammo won't work, let me shoot YOU with it. They always say no. Then I tell them,till you let me shoot YOU with it,shut up. They have never complained again.
 
I have always thought of HP expansion as desirable but not a given.

Due to many factors out of our control, a round might not expand.

But having the ability is better than not.


The trick is to choose a quality HP that reliably penetrates a minimum 12 inches in tests. I prefer 15" nominal penitration of proper expanded bullets.

The ammo should also work reliably in your gun.

If they fail to expand, then at worse they act like a fmj, if they do expand, you have the benefits of the HP.


Just try to align the factors as best you can.
 
Pick up two cheap racks of ribs and shoot them with a few FMJ rounds...here's a little shocker for everyone...FMJ's actually expand when they hit hard surfaces, and transfer energy on impact. It's an amazing feat of science. This topic gets so heated and it's rather silly. If you want to carry HP ammo, then by all means do so. If you want to carry FMJ then do that. Accuracy and function of the firearm are actually a whole lot more important than Terminal performance in a human target. Humans are VERY fragile and stop what they're doing quickly after holes are poked in them with either FMJ or HP bullets.

Over penetration: I like entry and exit wounds, twice as much blood loss. I draw that opinion from shooting game animals who are easily ten times tougher than the toughest person on earth. However, one of the cardinal rules of gun safety is: Be aware of your target, and what is beyond it. If you live in a city environment, and could put others at risk with a handgun bullet pass-through, you probably shouldn't be using a hand gun as your at home defense weapon. This is why God made shotguns, and why we have adapted them to hand guns in the form of the Governor, the Judge, etc. If you have any doubt about their defensive effectiveness at SD ranges, shoot the same rack of ribs from earlier with a payload of #6 or #4 bird shot and see what it does. That is more than enough to stop a human target, and will be a nightmare to any ER surgeon if they make it here. So, my opinion...for handgun ammo...carry what makes you comfortable and that you can shoot accurately...what functions flawlessly in your gun, etc. If over penetration of either is a real concern, the choice is clear and in the words of world famous firearms expert "Druncle Joe Tow-blasts Shotgun Biden", buy a shotgun...buy a shotgun.
 
OP may have a point in the differences being exaggerated, in that JHP decreases the risk of over-penetration but not to zero, and increases the wound channel but not spectacularly. The question then becomes do you want that edge, even if it is not huge; I do, personally.
 
TailGator said:
OP may have a point in the differences being exaggerated, in that JHP decreases the risk of over-penetration but not to zero, and increases the wound channel but not spectacularly. The question then becomes do you want that edge, even if it is not huge; I do, personally.
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Exactly. There's no logical reason to use FMJs unless you just can't afford the extra cost of JHPs. That, or your gun won't reliably feed JHPs, which is very rare these days.

Why would you not want to use ammo that performs better? I really just don't get it.
 
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