"I blame the victims"...critiques please
- Thread starter rangermonroe
- Start date
Don't blame the impoverished--
As this whole mess unravels in the aftermath of Katrina it is bound to unmask a cruel fact. Poverty is necessary to politics. It appears that a certain segment of politicians require an underclass for them to exist. The poverty class votes for those that espouse more welfare, support, and freebies and the politicians they elect are usually incompetent on their best day. To them, Poverty is power (as long as they are not the ones impoverished). The poor must suffer for them to have power. Sick thought but look at history. It is also apparent that these incompetent pols are coated with teflon. WTSHTF, they have unacanny abilities to deflect the blame to someone else (usually a sitting President). The whole political system in LA has been corrupt for as long as I have been able to read. Anyone remember the "Kingfish"? He was the most famous. Others preceeded and followed. The latest group just look stupid.
As this whole mess unravels in the aftermath of Katrina it is bound to unmask a cruel fact. Poverty is necessary to politics. It appears that a certain segment of politicians require an underclass for them to exist. The poverty class votes for those that espouse more welfare, support, and freebies and the politicians they elect are usually incompetent on their best day. To them, Poverty is power (as long as they are not the ones impoverished). The poor must suffer for them to have power. Sick thought but look at history. It is also apparent that these incompetent pols are coated with teflon. WTSHTF, they have unacanny abilities to deflect the blame to someone else (usually a sitting President). The whole political system in LA has been corrupt for as long as I have been able to read. Anyone remember the "Kingfish"? He was the most famous. Others preceeded and followed. The latest group just look stupid.
leadcounsel
Moderator
+1 Rangermonroe and other like minded folks:
To the naysayers:
In biblical times if your land was flooded and you lost everything, it was an unforeseen act of God and you were cursed.
In modern times, we make EVERYTHING a science. There are few natural disasters of epic proportion that couldn't be avoided with some careful planning.
When you build your home on a fault line or a coastal region known for hurricanes, PARTICULARLY below sea level, you are a fool and are contributing to the mess of a disaster.
We KNOW NOLA is below sea level on the coast.
We predicted the hurricane days in advance and ordered an evacuation for those not clever enough to figure it out themselves.
There are a million excuses why people cannot get out, but few of these excuses are legit. Even if you can only walk to flee, a healthy person can walk 20 miles per day. With 3 days notice a person could have gotten 60 miles away just by walking.
The UNDERLYING problem is lack of personal accountability, dependence on the GUB'MNT to come to the rescue, and our entitlement mentality as fat lazy Americans who cannot take responsibility for our own safety. I am willing to bet that most of those in need of rescue were LEFT of center when it comes to politics... and the entitlement mentality is also one LEFT of center. I see this as a problem with that political viewpoint.
While simplistic, I think the proper response by the Federal government would have been to 1) adequately WARN people to leave and help them leave with buses, etc. and even to provide for food and shelter for those that left as ordered; 2) for those that failed to leave, that was their choice and I wouldn't spend a dime going to their rescue; 3) I would seriously consider NOT spending any Federal $ to rebuild NOLA. It's a disaster waiting to happen.
I would otherwise be indifferent to the whole idiocy and mishandling of the situation but for the fact that this is costing hundreds of billions of FED tax dollars AND will likely drive MY insurance premiums up due to the disaster, much like 9/11 did with insurance rates. And, it's a problem with the ever-growing giant of the Federal Government interfering with localized problems.
To the naysayers:
In biblical times if your land was flooded and you lost everything, it was an unforeseen act of God and you were cursed.
In modern times, we make EVERYTHING a science. There are few natural disasters of epic proportion that couldn't be avoided with some careful planning.
When you build your home on a fault line or a coastal region known for hurricanes, PARTICULARLY below sea level, you are a fool and are contributing to the mess of a disaster.
We KNOW NOLA is below sea level on the coast.
We predicted the hurricane days in advance and ordered an evacuation for those not clever enough to figure it out themselves.
There are a million excuses why people cannot get out, but few of these excuses are legit. Even if you can only walk to flee, a healthy person can walk 20 miles per day. With 3 days notice a person could have gotten 60 miles away just by walking.
The UNDERLYING problem is lack of personal accountability, dependence on the GUB'MNT to come to the rescue, and our entitlement mentality as fat lazy Americans who cannot take responsibility for our own safety. I am willing to bet that most of those in need of rescue were LEFT of center when it comes to politics... and the entitlement mentality is also one LEFT of center. I see this as a problem with that political viewpoint.
While simplistic, I think the proper response by the Federal government would have been to 1) adequately WARN people to leave and help them leave with buses, etc. and even to provide for food and shelter for those that left as ordered; 2) for those that failed to leave, that was their choice and I wouldn't spend a dime going to their rescue; 3) I would seriously consider NOT spending any Federal $ to rebuild NOLA. It's a disaster waiting to happen.
I would otherwise be indifferent to the whole idiocy and mishandling of the situation but for the fact that this is costing hundreds of billions of FED tax dollars AND will likely drive MY insurance premiums up due to the disaster, much like 9/11 did with insurance rates. And, it's a problem with the ever-growing giant of the Federal Government interfering with localized problems.
Pointer said:
No, of course not -- not in the sense that someone should execute them...
But we all do know that stupidity (and the other things) CAN make a person more susceptible to DEATH.
What's that quote? "If you're gonna be stupid, you'd better be tough."
Now, that covers the stupid people -- the ones who thought they knew better. The ones who are too limited and shallow in their thinking, who thought, "Aww, how bad can it get?"
Ron White (of Blue Collar Comedy Tour fame) did a comedy routine talking about people who stuck around for a hurricane. One guy who was 50 years old in great shape, exercised every day. Ron ("Tater Salad") says, "Lemme explain something to you: It's not that the wind is blowin'... It's what the wind is blowin'! It doesn't matter if you can do 500 situps, if you get hit with a VOLVO!"
So the stupid people got what their stupidity purchases as a matter of course.
Old and infirmed people don't deserve to be harmed just because they can't get out of harm's way -- but then, do old and infirmed gazelles "deserve" to be a lion's meal just because they're the slowest to get out of the lion's way? No one says it is deserved -- it's just the way stuff happens.
Obese people... I dunno, man. If you get yourself to a point where you're a shut-in, you weigh MORE THAN 300 POUNDS and can't go ANYWHERE without MAJOR HELP, then you need to address that problem long before it becomes an issue of "you are stuck in a house that is collapsing and/or filling with water, while support services are stressed to the failure point. Who is to blame when a 450 lb. woman can't get out of her house while flood waters are rising -- her, or the two-person ambulance crew who can't possibly get her out?
-blackmind
We created NO...most of the people that stayed were welfare receipents, and were actually used to receiving food and care from the government. When an emergency rolls around, what happens to the sheeple?
I agree, some were unable to leave for various reasons, but the majority were able and just ignored the warnings.
I agree, some were unable to leave for various reasons, but the majority were able and just ignored the warnings.
What can you expect from those who depend on the government for everything else? Our wonderful Federal Government has created an Entitlement subclass within our citizenry. Those within that system have no individual responsibility for anything. Hungry? The government will feed you. Homeless, the government will house you. Sick..... you get the point. While I am giving to my local church to help some of these people, I'm afraid I do it begrudgingly because many of the people that I see on TV expect and even demand that I give them my money, beit in the form of government funding or charitable gifts. I know those people are the only ones that make the news and there are many who are simply grateful for any help. But to those who think that I should give to them simply because they made a bad decision...... I have two words. "Kiss off"
As usual there are lots of different opinions on this. Also, as usual, most (not all) of those opinons fall wide of the mark.
Saying that people deserve to die because they are idiots who are "left of center" is idiocy. What does political ideology have to do with death? Both sides of center will die at some point and their political leanings are irrelevant to that fact.
The "Welfare State" isn't at fault here either. People stayed because they wanted to stay and thought they were prepared for the worst. Unfortunately, "the worst" turned out to be a whole lot worse than they had prepared for. That some died due to this is tragic but not something to blame them for. As in the gazelle example, it's just something that happens and guilt isn't part of the equation.
Could they have been better prepared? Maybe. Could they have evacuated? Again, maybe. Could the whole situation have been handled better? Maybe but we'll never really know.
Pointing to Rita as an example of how awful Katrina was and why people should have evac'd won't work. BECAUSE of katrina, people evac'd for Rita and you can't make that particular door swing the other way. It's one way only.
In the end, lots of people died. Lots were rescued and lots didn't need anything. Life goes on.
Saying that people deserve to die because they are idiots who are "left of center" is idiocy. What does political ideology have to do with death? Both sides of center will die at some point and their political leanings are irrelevant to that fact.
The "Welfare State" isn't at fault here either. People stayed because they wanted to stay and thought they were prepared for the worst. Unfortunately, "the worst" turned out to be a whole lot worse than they had prepared for. That some died due to this is tragic but not something to blame them for. As in the gazelle example, it's just something that happens and guilt isn't part of the equation.
Could they have been better prepared? Maybe. Could they have evacuated? Again, maybe. Could the whole situation have been handled better? Maybe but we'll never really know.
Pointing to Rita as an example of how awful Katrina was and why people should have evac'd won't work. BECAUSE of katrina, people evac'd for Rita and you can't make that particular door swing the other way. It's one way only.
In the end, lots of people died. Lots were rescued and lots didn't need anything. Life goes on.
rangermonroe
New member
When I penned this letter to the editor of my local paper, I wondered if i was alone with my thoughts.
As anyone who supplis fodder to the OP/ED pages knows, there is no room to "meally mouth" things. You have to pick a point and stay on it. There is no room to backtrack and make exceptions for the few unfortunates that fall between the cracks of you assertation.
I do not belive that any member of this forum would pass by a "victim" and not render aid. No one here would give the finger to someone on a rooftop waving a flag...well maybe blackmind or mal h
I have really enjoyed the variety of responses and of opinions.
Thanks for the responses.
As anyone who supplis fodder to the OP/ED pages knows, there is no room to "meally mouth" things. You have to pick a point and stay on it. There is no room to backtrack and make exceptions for the few unfortunates that fall between the cracks of you assertation.
I do not belive that any member of this forum would pass by a "victim" and not render aid. No one here would give the finger to someone on a rooftop waving a flag...well maybe blackmind or mal h
I have really enjoyed the variety of responses and of opinions.
Thanks for the responses.
Rob, what does idiocy have to do with death?
Well, if idiocy causes people to make choices that put them at greater risk of death, that means they "deserve" to die.
People who make wise, rational choices not only deserve to live longer, they tend to live longer.
The kind of idiocy that makes a person believe he is safer without a gun than with a gun is the kind that gets that person killed when he encounters a situation where a gun might well have enabled him to save himself.
We're talking about WILFULL stupidity and idiocy.
Another example: Doesn't a guy who knows he should keep a jack and a spare in his car DESERVE to sit on the side of the highway for hours with a flat, since his own stupid decision to not equip his car properly is what kept him from being able to be on his way in 15 minutes?
So yeah, I can see what the poster was getting at when saying that left-of-center idiots whose own stupidity causes them trouble deserve the trouble that their stupidity brings upon them.
-blackmind
Well, if idiocy causes people to make choices that put them at greater risk of death, that means they "deserve" to die.
People who make wise, rational choices not only deserve to live longer, they tend to live longer.
The kind of idiocy that makes a person believe he is safer without a gun than with a gun is the kind that gets that person killed when he encounters a situation where a gun might well have enabled him to save himself.
We're talking about WILFULL stupidity and idiocy.
Another example: Doesn't a guy who knows he should keep a jack and a spare in his car DESERVE to sit on the side of the highway for hours with a flat, since his own stupid decision to not equip his car properly is what kept him from being able to be on his way in 15 minutes?
So yeah, I can see what the poster was getting at when saying that left-of-center idiots whose own stupidity causes them trouble deserve the trouble that their stupidity brings upon them.
-blackmind
In reference to my previous posts, I am refering to able bodied citizens. Not those that can't help themselves due to age, illness, disability and so on. Those that are able to fend for themselves whether they be male or female have every obligation to do so. It will be a cold day in hell before I rely or wait on the local or federal government to take care of me or my family. That is my responsibility. And if they try to take my guns like they did in N.O., I WILL resist.
There are people there that couldn't get out. Think about the hospital situation people. There were people immobilized in hospitals. They are there not because they wanted to be. It's because they had to be. Many patients in hospitals were not well enough to be able to leave the hospital. This goes back to the issuse about it being not just black and white. There are grey areas that give legitimate reasons for the inability to evacuate an area. Do not group everyone that stayed into the ignorant and stupid bunch. If you assume that everyone that stayed falls into this group than that is about as ignorant and short sighted as it gets. 
rangermonroe
New member
if my wife or child was in a hospital, infirm, or in an old folks home or whatever, I would be by her side and take her to safety, or die in the process.
It still would not be a case of me on the news blaming the president for not saving my wife.
If things got ugly enough, I would appropriate the required vehicle and ferry my own to safety...and I would not go there with unfilled seats.
It still would not be a case of me on the news blaming the president for not saving my wife.
If things got ugly enough, I would appropriate the required vehicle and ferry my own to safety...and I would not go there with unfilled seats.
Blackmind
Your comment makes sense to me...
Survival of the fittest and all that...
But, I'm not an evolutionist and survival of the fittest IMHO...
doesn't allow us free reign to put morality or the commandments of our God on a lower priority...
If it did... I would be out hunting something more satisfying than deer and elk.
Your comment makes sense to me...
Survival of the fittest and all that...
But, I'm not an evolutionist and survival of the fittest IMHO...
doesn't allow us free reign to put morality or the commandments of our God on a lower priority...
If it did... I would be out hunting something more satisfying than deer and elk.
How about the families of 9/11 victims?
Did the government treat the Murrah Building victims' families as lottery winners? Nope.
A new standard has been set: If something horrible happens to you or yours, the Government should have to pay you money for your suffering. "So sorry; here's some money to make you feel better."
I think it's sickening.
And the double-standard that rises up is deplorable. If we are going to give these handouts around, are we going to give them for EVERY nasty thing that happens? What if Mt. St. Helens erupts and destroys a few towns? Will THEY get billions of federal dollars (OUR dollars) too?? What about the next decent magnitude earthquake in CA?
-blackmind
Did the government treat the Murrah Building victims' families as lottery winners? Nope.
A new standard has been set: If something horrible happens to you or yours, the Government should have to pay you money for your suffering. "So sorry; here's some money to make you feel better."
I think it's sickening.
And the double-standard that rises up is deplorable. If we are going to give these handouts around, are we going to give them for EVERY nasty thing that happens? What if Mt. St. Helens erupts and destroys a few towns? Will THEY get billions of federal dollars (OUR dollars) too?? What about the next decent magnitude earthquake in CA?
-blackmind
Aw, what the hell -- you've suffered, you deserve some free money!
After all, the government failed to prevent the flood, didn't it?
The flood happened, and nothing the government did or did not do kept it from happening. Therefore, the government didn't save you. Now, because of its failure, it owes you. How this is not obvious to everyone is beyond my understanding.
When climbers get stuck on the side of Mt. McKinley and freeze to death overnight because bad weather swoops in, the government should pay their survivors at least the amount of money they were projected to have been likely to earn in their lifetime. How could it not? Where was the government to save them from an unforeseen disaster?
:barf:
-blackmind
After all, the government failed to prevent the flood, didn't it?
The flood happened, and nothing the government did or did not do kept it from happening. Therefore, the government didn't save you. Now, because of its failure, it owes you. How this is not obvious to everyone is beyond my understanding.
When climbers get stuck on the side of Mt. McKinley and freeze to death overnight because bad weather swoops in, the government should pay their survivors at least the amount of money they were projected to have been likely to earn in their lifetime. How could it not? Where was the government to save them from an unforeseen disaster?
:barf:
-blackmind