I apologize........red dots

[NoSecondBest]

I have found most civilian reticle dots to be too large.

Too large for what? I've mounted red dots on lever actin rifles (1886 45-70) and it's capable of shooting five shot groups at a measured 114 yards into less than 1.5". I've shot major competition and used the available dot sizes of 4moa with no problems at all. In fact, at the combo event I opened the 3" gates at 45 and 40 yards using a 4moa dot. I regularly ran the precision event in hand gun at 35 yards shooting at 4" squares at 35 yards (all of these are timed speed events). Knowing how to shoot is what it's all about using a dot at distance, not how small it is. I've never needed a dot smaller than 4moa even when they were available. Some guys have the same problem shooting with fiber optic sights.....they simply don't know how to use them for precision.

 

[Nathan]

Back to the op.....@NOSECONDBEST’s post really answers all the questions....

3 things I can add:
1) lens size is really about dot aquisition speed. How misaligned the gun can be to the target and still see the dot when you raise the gun. The fastest dots will be the largest, but shooter skill can overcome a lot.

2) a larger lens also allows better field of view on extremely close/large things like somebody jumping right in front of you at grab your gun close ranges.

3) dot size is about speed of target acquisition. After you acquire the dot, how fast can it be put on target. I’m not sure the .mil guys have different dot sizes, but EO Tech’s generally have a 1 moa aiming donuts with larger halos and single dot sights like Aimpoints usually have a 2 moa dot, although 4 - 8 moa are available. To my way of thinking, 2 moa is a good rifle dot size for 0-150 yd pdw type rifles, but I could see 4 moa being better on a door kicker. Handguns are probably best served by a 4 moa - 8 moa dot....think about it, how many handguns can shoot a smaller group than 2” at 25 yds?

 

[stinkeypete]

My two cents worth:

Shooting small game on a sunny day with snow on the ground, I learned that the dot almost washed out.

I also learned that using my ultradot turned off and simply centering the target in the tube was surprisingly effective.

The thing that made the boys at the range most irritated was that cheap BB gun dot sights that cost less than a box of .223 worked at a much higher level than the cheap price might indicate.

All my handguns can shoot 2” at 25 yards, it’s just that most handgunners can’t! If you use a big fuzzy dot on your target pistol, you’ll never improve your shooting.

If you want something less stringent than 1moa, give the cheap air gun sights a try. How much have you got to lose?

 

[davidsog]

Too large for what?

CT, HRT, and general CQB work. Outside the house the ability to adjust brightness was required but a larger dot was not.

That is why the folks that perform those missions asked for smaller dots. Impressive as knocking holes in paper on a timer or shooting jackrabbits can be....

The facts are other folks with a requirement for very precise and effective target engagements who pioneered red dot sights ask for, received, and use smaller dots than is generally found in the civvy world.

You can be mad about and justify the larger dots all day long but that does not change that fact.

 

[davidsog]

I could see 4 moa being better on a door kicker.

Exactly, basic principle of marksmanship...Aim Small, Miss Small.

Outside the house nobody was limited by the smaller dot either. At least nobody complained on any of my tours nor did I hear of any complaints. Adjusting the brightness for conditions was all that was required. I had no issue using it in the snow drifts in the Baghran Valley either.

We were limited outside the house more by long ranges and the limitations of 5.56mm more so than a red dot sight. In fact, on my second tour I had an M21 refurbed by the armourer and kept that in the GMV specifically for squirters as well as the firefight outside the house after the hit.

 

[NoSecondBest]

CT, HRT, and general CQB work. Outside the house the ability to adjust brightness was required but a larger dot was not.

That is why the folks that perform those missions asked for smaller dots. Impressive as knocking holes in paper on a timer or shooting jackrabbits can be....

The facts are other folks with a requirement for very precise and effective target engagements who pioneered red dot sights ask for, received, and use smaller dots than is generally found in the civvy world.

You can be mad about and justify the larger dots all day long but that does not change that fact.

None of this has a thing to do with the OP's original question. A 4moa dot is not a large dot. You've gotten way off topic.

 

[davidsog]

Too large for what? I've mounted red dots on lever actin rifles (1886 45-70) and it's capable of shooting five shot groups at a measured 114 yards into less than 1.5". I've shot major competition and used the available dot sizes of 4moa with no problems at all. In fact, at the combo event I opened the 3" gates at 45 and 40 yards using a 4moa dot. I regularly ran the precision event in hand gun at 35 yards shooting at 4" squares at 35 yards (all of these are timed speed events). Knowing how to shoot is what it's all about using a dot at distance, not how small it is. I've never needed a dot smaller than 4moa even when they were available. Some guys have the same problem shooting with fiber optic sights.....they simply don't know how to use them for precision.

A 4moa dot is not a large dot.

Yep, represents the largest dot in the inventory though.

You've gotten way off topic.

Wow. Ok, I got way off topic. You on the other hand did not, got it.


However, I think it is relevant to the OP question. For a pistol, the micro dot sights is the way to go and you can use a larger MOA than I would use with a long gun.

I would not get too large though and the smaller is better IAW brightness adjustments. Keeping both eyes open your brain will superimpose the dot and the smaller window is not an issue.

On the long gun, go with the something that does not require a battery and smallest dot you can see.

Remember, even 4 MOA covers a 1/4 of the torso bowling pin lethal zone at 25 yards and 50% of the Head/Neck Lethal zone....something to think about.

When buying a red dot, remember that if you have a gun that will put all its shots into a 2 inch group at 100 yards and you install a sight with a 4 minute dot, you will never see a 2 inch group again.

https://www.opticsplanet.com/howto/how-to-choose-a-red-dot-sight-red-dot-sight-reticle-sizes.html

 

[Sharkbite]

Remember, even 4 MOA covers a 1/4 of the torso bowling pin lethal zone at 25 yards and 50% of the Head/Neck Lethal zone....something to think about.

WHAT?!?!?!?

Clearly you have NO IDEA how MOA works. A 4 moa dot will only subtend 1 INCH at 25 yards.

This coming from someone that claims to have been through the SF sniper school and all

 

[davidsog]

Most red dot sights are around 4 MOA which means the dot will cover 4 inches at 100 yards, or 2 inches at 50 yards or 8 inches at 200 yards.

https://www.opticsplanet.com/howto/how-to-choose-a-red-dot-sight-red-dot-sight-reticle-sizes.html

Clearly you have NO IDEA how MOA works.

Bowling pin lethal area for E type FBI silhouette is ~4 inches at the torso and ~2 inches at the head/neck

4 MOA = 1 inch at 25 yards

davidsog says:

Remember, even 4 MOA covers a 1/4 of the torso bowling pin lethal zone at 25 yards and 50% of the Head/Neck Lethal zone....something to think about.

So what were you saying Sharkbite? LMAO!

 

[Sharkbite]

Bowling pin lethal area for E type FBI silhouette is ~4 inches at the torso and ~2 inches at the head/neck

The “E” tgt is a DOD (US Mil) tgt. The FBI uses the “Q” tgt. In either case a 4moa dot does not cover 1/4 of the chest, nor 1/2 of the head.

4 MOA = about 1” at 25 yards and LESS at closer distances. Less then 1/2” at 10yards. That is NOT big

 

[davidsog]

In either case a 4moa dot does not cover 1/4 of the chest, nor 1/2 of the head.

Nobody claim it does...


You do not know what the bowling pin is do you?

 

[Sharkbite]

You do not know what the bowling pin is do you?

Yes David, as a Nationally certified Law enforcement firearms instructor, i do.

Remember, even 4 MOA covers a 1/4 of the torso bowling pin lethal zone at 25 yards and 50% of the Head/Neck Lethal zone....something to think about.

Lets give your “E” tgt a 4” wide and a 12” tall “bowling pin”. Some basic math gives a footprint of 48 sq inches. You claim a 1” dot will cover 1/4 of that. Clearly “Operator math”

 

[davidsog]

Yes David, as a Nationally certified Law enforcement firearms instructor, i do.

Come on Nationally Certified Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor...

It only took 3 times specifying "BOWLING PIN" for you to get with the program.

48 inch square area....that is huge....No Reaction Kill shots should be much easier in that 2 inch wide zone...

I guess if you count hitting him the heart as a no reaction kill then we can use that 48 inches.

Just saying, LOL. Seriously, the entire area comparison is not valid but I'll let you figure it out.

 

[Pops1085]

Sharkbite, reading comprehension is important. You’re sounding like a troll and hijacking a thread for no reason other than to be salty.

I kind if like the bigger wide open sights more. It is already going on a rifle, there is nothing tiny about that to begin with, so why limit yourself with a smaller (and thus, sometimes slower to aquire) field of view. Personally I can’t see a significant difference in speed due to the difference in weight between a micro and a large sight. Maybe you can but i doubt most can.

The micros are purpose built to be small for small weapons. They can and are used effectively on larger guns but as a primary you’re probably better off with a bigger sight. If you’ve got to hike 20 miles, yeah maybe save some weight where you can. If I was SWAT in an urban setting, where at the end of the day I could sleep in my own bed and not worry about battery life, i would buy an Eotech