I am having a Mosin Nagant day ... 300 Win Mag

Paul Mauser never intended his '98 for the .308 and .358 Norma magnums, but they seem to hold up fine. Norma used to supply chamber drawings for both to use them specifically in the '98. I seriously doubt they (Norma) did any in depth study of German Military receivers.
So what if the rifle gets set back after a couple thousand rounds. I have welded on Russian receivers and the material used is low carbon steel. It certainly will not "work harden" and shatter. I doubt half the commercial rifles chambered for the .300 Magnum in the 60's through the 80's could pass that kind of test. Even light machine guns have a receiver life specified per so many rounds.
 
Far as the Mosin-Nagant action...

47 grains (full case) of 2400 did not cause receiver failure, skip to about minute 12:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfiXFyIbOZw

In Part II, they used a full case (again, 47 grains) of what they call "range trash", which is mix of every type of powder swept up off the reloading room floor...again, receiver did not fail.

For anyone with Quickload, it would be interesting to know the pressure developed with 47 grains of 2400 under a 147 grain pill...
 
Paul Mauser never intended his '98 for the .308 and .358 Norma magnums, but they seem to hold up fine.

Specifically which M98 actions and for how many rounds do they hold up fine?


Norma used to supply chamber drawings for both to use them specifically in the '98. I seriously doubt they (Norma) did any in depth study of German Military receivers.

Looks like Norma is now German owned, at one time it was Norwegian. I thought it was Swedish. If Americans are going to blow themselves up, with their guns, seems to me that a Swedish Company has very little legal liability in this Country. They are free to provide Americans all sorts of dangerous advice, as long as they make a profit off American’s buying their cartridges. Sounds like a win-win.

However, things are different in Germany, I read about German proof laws. Up to the mid 60’s, if your thunderstick failed proof in any sort of way, the whole thing was crushed, cut by welding tools, and sent back to the owner in pieces. Since then, only the offending parts is smashed and welded. We can all understand how German shooters reacted to having perfectly good stocks, scopes, scope mounts, bolts, barrels, destroyed because of a non functional safety. Proof house workers probably had a great time smashing customer’s rifles to pieces. All thundersticks go through the proof house from private sales to newly manufactured, from the gun company. I am of the opinion that all EU countries follow similar proof laws. The law’s desired effect was to weed out old actions.

So, just how many old Mauser actions go through Norwegian/German proof houses, and how many pass? You have an idea?

So what if the rifle gets set back after a couple thousand rounds. I have welded on Russian receivers and the material used is low carbon steel. It certainly will not "work harden" and shatter. I doubt half the commercial rifles chambered for the .300 Magnum in the 60's through the 80's could pass that kind of test. Even light machine guns have a receiver life specified per so many rounds.

I am glad to see that you understand that every firearm has a design life and a fatigue life. Designing firearms for an infinite fatigue life would create heavy, unusable firearms. I do have long range friends who have gone through a number of barrels on their long range rifles. It used to be that the most popular actions were the pre 64 M70, push feed M70, and the M700. Actions like the Panda Stoll and Bernard are popping up in great frequency. For the last couple of decades the 300 Win Mag level cartridges have dropped out, they used to be popular in the early 60’s and probably up to the 80’s. I saw them, occasionally in the nineties. The development of good 6.5 mm bullets and rule changes have been good, because the 6.5 mm rounds are ballistic ally better, and kick less. About the only 30 caliber being shot is the 308 Win because of Palma and F Class Tactical rules.

As for the half of the commercial actions you are referring to, I have no idea which ones, nor whether you have actual test data.

I am not going to spend $400 on a good match barrel, $800 on a match stock, $500 on sight bases, drilling and tapping, mount a $1,000 scope, and then screw on some old Russian action, to finish up a $2,700 rifle. And, I am not going to advise anyone to do so, in fact, I will advise against it.

Gunsmiths, desiring to draw in business, will of course, ballyhoo such foolishness.
 
Tobnpr,
No, I have not trued a receiver face nor lapped a lug for 10 years.
My brother is lapping a Mauser lug today, due to folklore in Kuhnhausen book.

Slamfire,
I have fired 36 rounds @64kpsi. The primer pierced once.
 
Slamfire, Have you ever actually re-barreled a rifle? Sure does not sound like it. You started out good. I have seen and heard some of the dumbest things about guns, and it usually involved either heat treating or headspace. Now I am going to have to throw your last couple posts out on the pile with the rest of the silliness. I was always partial to Arisakas. I guess Ackley was full of stuff about them too, or didn't you get that far in your research?
 
Still bugging the hell out of me as to why it won't shoot close to bugholes with a Krieger barrel. Something's wrong, clearly...

Did you epoxy bed the receiver after that pic showing the recoil cross-block/pillar?
 
3 times to the range, and 3 times I saw a tiny 3 shot group at 50y teasing me.
I do not glass between the Aluminum and the receiver. That is a pre compressed connection. I think the winds will die down and I will try again Thursday.
 
Slamfire, Have you ever actually re-barreled a rifle? Sure does not sound like it

Yes I have. Short chambered barrels that I installed and cut to depth. I don't have a machine lathe and gunsmiths that I know who are competitive shooters, a couple of whom I shoot with, turn and install my barrel blanks. Gunsmithing takes a lot of time, time of which I am either reloading, or shooting reloads in competition. I am willing to pay for trusted individuals to do the machine work on things that I don't feel confident doing, and don't want to take the time and effort to master.

I was always partial to Arisakas. I guess Ackley was full of stuff about them too, or didn't you get that far in your research?

I like the Arisaka design, it is a very well thought out and clever design, one of the few actions that could be considered equal to or better than a M98. It was interesting to read in Ackley's book, about the heat treatment of the receiver.

Since you can't understand headspace, heat treatment, or cartridge support discussions, you probably are clueless why the Arisaka action is so strong, for a plain carbon steel action.

So Gunplummer, what is the extent of your education? You have a College Degree in Engineering, preferably Mechanical or Aerospace?
 
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I live in a world of engineers....socially.. relatives and friends. My neighbors are mostly attorneys.
My father was showing me math when i was a little boy and I was showing my son math when he was a little boy. I have long challenged Piaget's concept of volume conservation in children. One of my one year old granddaughter's other grandparents is a physiology professor who has challenged me to disprove conservation by testing our granddaughter. The kid is about to get strange shaped glasses of water, not math from me. She can wait until she is 6 to get calculus, like her father did.
 
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Slamfire, I think you should stop now. "A plain carbon steel action"? As opposed to what other kind of action? The Arisaka actions are as close to 4140 as you can get. This is a high carbon steel and is designated in many books as a tool steel. I have cut, welded, heat treated, and made bolts for quite a few. Arisaka receivers have qualities that are not even close to low carbon steel receivers. I no longer have a surface grinder, but have probably made more headspace gauges and reamers than you have held in your hand. I don't even need a headspace gauge to check a rimless chamber if the barrel is off and I have the bolt and receiver. I can get out the Machinery Handbook and figure out how to check it with the appropriate sized ball and a depth mic. There have been tapered bore jobs checked like that for years in machine shops. Yes, we are all wrong and you are right.
I stood next to a blanchard grinder once and knew the guy that operated it. I guess I am qualified to surface a flywheel on one.
 
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3 times to the range, and 3 times I saw a tiny 3 shot group at 50y teasing me.
I do not glass between the Aluminum and the receiver. That is a pre compressed connection. I think the winds will die down and I will try again Thursday.

This type of inconsistency is often seen from receivers moving around in the stock. The wood inletting looks a bit rough in the picture. I'd glass bed the receiver behind the recoil block, the right side of the action (left side is tough due to the interrupter) and the tang if you continue have issues. Good luck.
 
It also might be me moving around on a wobbly old wood bench and seat that do not fit me.

I will leave for a month in the desert in 3 or 4 weeks. I can get good stability when prone.
 
I would like to add, I think what you did with the 300 is pretty amazing. hope you get your expected accuracy out of it. congratulations on your build. I know it's not the first 300WM mosin, but it is one of very few. Apparently a few have been built and used in the (Finn Sniper challenge?) whatever that is.....

cool project, keep it up, love your posts and learn a lot from them
 
I went to the range a 4th time yesterday and wrote up a range report.

I had cleaned the Copper out of the 3 rifles and introduced a 4th rifle I built 10 years ago, a 300WinMag VZ24 Parker Hale midland barrel, vari x II 3x9x50 scope.
I put moly bore paste in all 4 barrels.

6.5-06 with a couple sighting and fouling shot first with 3.5" OAL ammo
2.4" 5 shot group at 100 yards with 3.34" ammo
2.1" 5 shot group at 100 yards with 3.34" ammo
2.25 moa

300Win Mag Mosin, no first fouling shot
2.1" 5 shot group at 50 yards with 3.34" ammo
1.9" 4 shot group at 50 yards after fouling shot
4 moa

300Win Mag VZ24, no first fouling shot
1.15" 5 shot group at 50 yards with 3.34" ammo
shooting 2.7" to the right of point of aim at 50 yards .. needs 5.4 moa adjustment
2 moa

6mmrem 1903 turk 85 gr Sierra bullet no first fouling shot
3.2" 5 shot group at 100 yards
1.85" 4 shot group at 100 yard after fouling shot
2 moa

Conclusion; cannot hunt with Mosin as is. Shorten the barrel or super glue the scope mount or something.
 

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Conclusion; cannot hunt with Mosin as is. Shorten the barrel or super glue the scope mount or something.

You think this is due to barrel harmonics?

I know you're being sarcastic on the mount since you've never had issues with the ATI.
 
300Win Mag Mosin, no first fouling shot
2.1" 5 shot group at 50 yards with 3.34" ammo
1.9" 4 shot group at 50 yards after fouling shot
4 moa

Check mounts, glue them to the receiver if necessary, change scopes.
 
I worked on a Savage that had a similar problem. The guy had mounted a Simmons (Been a long time, pretty sure it was) scope on a .300 Magnum. What was going on was the scope tube was too flexible (Thin) and moving around in the rings. At first I thought alignment problems and lapped the rings in. I simply could not tighten the rings enough to clamp that scope tight.
Put a mark on the tube or measure off something before cranking some rounds thru it. I am not saying that is the problem, but maybe.
 
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Thanks for the encouragement.

Up until now I took a 0.3000+ pin gauge and poked in and felt for any change in amplitude of wiggle as I pushed the pin in deeper. I never felt any.
But last night I could see a real threshold in the bore where the thread relief cut is on the muzzle brake threads.
Then I tried pushing the 0.3000+ pin gauge in further. At 1.75" insertion, hardy any protrusion left for gripping the 2" long pin, the pin hits interference instead of wiggle:eek:
If I drop the pin into the breech and pound it through the bore with a cleaning rod, it is 20 pounds of force the whole way, until the trailing end of the pin gets 1.75" from the muzzle and it is free.
So the change in shininess of the bore under the muzzle break threads is not the problem, it is an overall bigger bore for the last 1.75" that is the accuracy problem.

So I need to pull the rifle apart, put the barrel in the lathe. Dial in the bore, cut off more than 1.75" and recrown. The barrel will change from 23.5" to ~ 21.5".

The next day the range is open is Wednesday at noon.
I would bet even money that Wednesday that rifle will improve from a 4 moa rifle to a 2 moa rifle, 5 shots at 100 yards.
That sounds bad but all most all the deer and antelope I have shot were with rifles that did 1.5" 3 shots at 100 yards =~~ 2" 5 shots at 100 yards.

Nothing about hunting goes as planned.
Not much about this gunsmithing is going as planned.
 

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What kind of scope mounts do you guys use on the ATI mounts? Tried a Nikon P-series the other day, and it just doesn't fit. I could machine it down if I had to, but hoping you guys had rings that work well and fit tight. Thanks
 
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