I am giving my vote to a killer.........

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Sorry JohnDavid I was ranting. I guess the line who is more the fool, a fool or the man who tries to reason with a fool.

I think that they should put convicts that have committed serious felonies such as murder or rape... in solitary confinement for their entire term.
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The first prisons in the eastern united states were founded by quakers who believed this very concept. They would give them a bible to study, and believed this would lead them to enlightenment.

Now they put people into supermax prisons who are considered high-risk, stabbing or injuring guards, and other prisoners. Just very bad people, and not in the sense that he was a bad dude, but in the sense not good. The studies say that it generally makes people anti-social, and insane. I think we have one super-max prison in Ionia, MI. If you escaped up their you had better be part polar bear becasue it is cold and there is nothing around to eat, unless you are a survival guru. Most people up there are from the cities or thee city in MI.
 
Gratuitously snide comments about juries aside, here are some points to consider...

The death penalty benefits society because it permanently removes from our midst those that would wantonly prey on the rest of us. A vast majority of those executed have lengthy histories of escalatng violence and predation. Many have a history of multiple counts of murder.

Effectiveness of the death penalty as a deterrent is reduced because it is not carried out in a timely fashion. Average time between imposition of sentence and execution is 12 years. Effectiveness would be enhanced by public attendance.

Cost per inmate per year in Fed/State prison is 55K on average. A timely execution of sentence would, indeed, be a financial benefit to society.

Financial costs for each execution are minimal.

Sentences of life in prison without possibility of parole are the very definition of cruel and inhuman punishment. Inmates incarcerated under this sentence have nothing to live for, making their behavior in the facility hazardous to others while escalating their own desire to escape. Upon escape, they prey again without consequence...'whatta they gonna do, lock me up'? HA.

Prisons, at their best, are for incarceration and the rehabilitation of folks who are willing to make permanent changes in their lives. At their worst, they are nightmares of human warehousing, drug abuse, HIV, assault, homosexual rape and an anti societal peer culture. Prisons full of murderers at 55k per year per inmate with no chance for parole benefits society...how?

Ya know...
Each year, hundreds of thousands of people fly millions of miles using commercial aviation. In addition to this modern convenience, goods, products, mail and equipment are air freighted daily. It is generally considered a benefit to society that this aerial infrastructure is available for our use. Unfortunately, due to the law of averages, human error, weather problems, mechanical failure or just simple bad luck, several of these aircraft fall from the sky yearly, killing all on board and often killing folks on the ground as well. As tragic as their deaths are, the passengers and crew make the decision to be on board the airplane...but what of the folks on the ground. WHACK...a neighborhood taken out by a 737. Completely innocent folks killed by an aviation industry that can't be 100% safe and sure.

If we follow your logic, there would be NO aviation due to the threat of innocent folks gettng killed. And they are being killed...at a much higher rate than folks mistakenly dying from lethal injection via the death penalty. The same arguement can be made for rail and highway traffic as well. Your arguements just don't hold water.
 
The fairest possible death penalty should be administered by the potential victim at the scene of the crime. All aspects of the legal code should reflect and facilitate this. We have a personal responsibility to try not to be victims and the courts have a moral obligation to support us in this. All attempts at justice after the fact seem corrupted by the agendas and shortcomings of those in the legal system on both sides. Self defense should never be a crime, criminal or civil. In many places it currently is.
 
"Snide", like your Kumbaya comment? Well, obviously I'm a bleeding heart if I don't like killing innocent US citizens! But forget about them, G has a soft spot for our pocketbooks:
A timely execution of sentence would, indeed, be a financial benefit to society.
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So I'll ask again, what is a nice round number of innocents executed vs. dollars saved that everyone can be comfortable with? For maybe a $10 million dollar state tax cut, would two deaths be okay? How about four?


You point about deterrent use of the death penalty is theoretical, unproven, and largely unlikely. People who wantonly kill do so because they don't believe they will get caught. The sentencing portion of their trial couldn't be further from their thoughts when they pull the trigger.

Sentences of life in prison without possibility of parole are the very definition of cruel and inhuman punishment.
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Compared to death??? But really, I don't care. I do care about the ones who are later absolved and can be released. No one has come up with an amnesty for death.
WHACK...a neighborhood taken out by a 737.
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So true. If only the travelers had used cars or trains, which never kill bystanders. :rolleyes: Or maybe they could just stay home? Nope, can't do that, we all have paroled serial killers living next door. :D
 
Handy,
'innocents executed vs dollars saved'. Interesting that you ARE able to get the point. The question DOES boil down to a cost/benefit analysis. I stand by my previous post, especially in light of demonstrated risk to life and limb associated with a whole host of other personal and societal endeavours and our ability to persevere, even thrive, dispite those risks. Should everyone walk because innocents die when airplanes crash, trains derail and cars collide? Should firearms ownership be banned because innocent folks are occasionally killed? Should we eliminate electricity from our lives because of multiple accidental electrocutions yearly? Should we ban child birth because of the number of babies and mothers who perish each year? More people are killed yearly in vending machine accidents than have been wrongly put to death in the last decade.

Some pretty broad statements were made regarding what killers think about when they pull the trigger as well as a life in prison vs execution. On what do you base your statements? Do you know any killers; ever been in a prison for more than just a short visit; talked to any inmates at length over an extended period of time? Are you speaking from experience or just parroting something that you read in an Amnesty International pamphlet?
Also, I'd like you to provide some legitimate numbers illustrating just how many 'innocent' individuals have been executed in this country in the past 30 years; confirmed, not alleged!

You challenged me to justify the death penalty in financial terms, which I did. I have also done so in terms of benefit to society vs cost to the individual.
The fact that you mocked me for doing so only reinforces my contention that your opinion has no merit. Please think twice before replying unless you have something useful to offer. I'm interested in a civil discussion, not a fight.
 
Dan,
[You must be a great christian who favors innocents be put to death becasue the manner that they were put to death is correct.
I must be evil because I don't believe in one of your hundreds of sects. But I want innocent people to be free and not killed. Is it me, it could be me, but I think you have a serious logic problem.

I guess then that when you are accused of a crime you didn't commit and it is sensationalised and you get the death penalty, then you will be judged as you have judged others and want others to be judged. You say that you do not care about innocent people being killed. So get the log and half the forest out of your eye. I do not understand the words of a being that does not exist. I do not think that christion scholars believe that god wrote the bible. So I can understand the words of somebody who lived between 2000 and 5000 years ago.]

Your rant is irrational.
There are so many errors that I hate to have to go into all of them. However, Christian scholars are convinced that the Bible is the inspired word of God. There are some liberals who are not true Christians who deny it because they cannot understand it, and it makes no sense to them. That is what the Bible says about them.

You are an atheist by admission. The Bible says that you are a fool.
[Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,]

[Psalms 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.]

[Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 24:7 Wisdom is too high for a fool: he openeth not his mouth in the gate.]

As for trials, if the evidence is such that a person is found guilty then that is how the system is established.
[Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:]

[Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.]

That is the system of justice. It may not be perfect, but it is what we have, and the death penalty is fair and just and necessary.

Jerry
 
I hate prison and the death penalty. They're stupid. If someone steals my car DO NOT PUT HIM IN PRISON AND MAKE ME PAY FOR IT. ENSLAVE HIM AND GIVE ME HIS EARNINGS. Someone kill someone? Then enslave them for life.

Now I'm all for one the spot capital punishment. Shoot burglars and stuff. I don't care if they're not attacking me, the punk needs to learn to keep out of other people's ****.
 
As of 1996, 85 people in the last 25 years on death row have been released and are regarded as "not guilty"/should never been charged. All of those people were subject to a fair trial where they were sentenced to death. New evidence or new judges/jurors during appeals were such that there wasn't even reason for re-trials. Those are just the success stories. That's over three per year that we KNOW of. Any honest man will realize that the total must be much higher.


The comparison between airplanes, firearms, cars and the death penalty is of necessary evils. Transportation is mandated by the economy that feeds us. Firearms save more lives than they take. But, as shown by the states that don't have it, the death penalty is unnecessary expedience. While the elimination of air travel would create a depression and famine, the lack of a death penalty seems to have little, if any economic repercussions on the states that don't practice it.

The imposition of the death penalty, rather than a necessity, is a luxury. A practice that is done to provide modest convenience to some, at the sacrifice of the lives of law abiding citizens. Again, how many lives is a minor tax break worth?

On the economic end, both death row and the normal prison system could be much more efficient. A complete revision of the prison system could make the prisons virtually self-sufficient. Any reforms to bring the price of death row down can't be considered without equal reform to the mechanics of incarceration.

I'm interested in a civil discussion, not a fight.
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Ohh, O. Kumbaya!
 
jerryM you are just as fanatical as the individuals who drove planes into buildings.

IF YOU THINK I AM A LIBERAL YOU DO NOT KNOW THE MEANING OF THE WORD. Using the words of your book is actually pretty funny because of course the Koran says that everybody who does not believe as it says is a fool and an infidel, so there!!! You see nothing wrong with putting an innocent man to death? Your religion has been corrupted by bad translations mainly the king james version of the bible. Christian scholars gee I bet they are not predjudiced. If you are on this board have you ever killed something, sounds like that is a no,no.

The death penalty can not by definition be fair and especially JUST if an innocent man is killed by it. Taking it case by case. I have always said that I believe in the death penalty so I have no idea where that came from. I hope you are not saying that are justice system is based on the bible. I hope you relasize that every state has its own judicial code, and rules, and not every state has the death penalty.

You must not have very good reading comprehension. READ THE POSTS OVER AGAIN. JUST ADMIT THAT YOU SAID WHAT YOU SAID I PULLED IT RIGHT OUT OF YOUR POST. Don't preach at me, come up with an original thought once in your life.
 
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