I Almost Had To Shoot Someone

Chances are if you are at contact distance with an aggressor and he has a knife you are going to get cut somewhere.
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That's why "I stood there while he reached down...and grabbed a knife" describes a very unwise course of action.

To me it is best to accept that and try to mitigate the damage done.
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Better than moving away FAST?

Are you somehow presuming that when your gun goes bang, the whistle blows and the action stops instantly?

If someone is standing next to you and sticking you with a knife, you are in a very bad situation indeed.
 
Better than moving away FAST?
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I do believe that I specified rearward movement away from the threat when I was asked exactly what I would do. Define FAST? I am not turning my back to flee and hope the aggressor does not catch me.

Since I have been asked what I would do and responded to be met with "critical insight" care to explain your course of action in specific detail to us other than "not be in the situation in the first place"?
 
Local laws obviously differ amongst all of us posters here. And the OP has already had a huge amount of constructive criticism. So my input isnt about tactics or legality, but more musing over how the prosecution in my hometown has recently been taking a stand.

Some months back an argument over payment for services rendered between a client and an employee resulted in the client getting shot. Client survived the shooting. The shooter claimed it was self defense. The prosecution declined to proceed because they were not confident they could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was NOT self defense.

Also a few months ago, (doesnt involve gunplay) an accusation of sexual assault was placed, there was a witness in the vehicle in which the assault allegedly occurred, and there were other people willing to testify about other possible assaults from the same assailant. Prosecution again declined to do anything because of not being able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the assault actually occurred.

This is setting what may be a dangerous precedent in my city (Anchorage AK). And it helps to pay close attention to what things do get prosecuted in each of your locations as well. Not to plan out what ones course of action might be in the event one needs to use deadly force, but rather to prepare oneself for potential aftermath.
 
That's why "I stood there while he reached down...and grabbed a knife" describes a very unwise course of action.
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This is an ideal time to highlight that it takes a great deal of effort to be mentally prepared. It also is easy to say "I would do this" or "I would do that" but its all just words until one is in that situation.
I hope I never have to find out what my reaction will be. And if I do ever find out, I hope I come out of in unscathed. Everyone should remember that carrying a gun, practicing, mentally going thru scenarios, never GUARANTEES the best possible outcome.
 
Since I have been asked what I would do and responded to be met with "critical insight" care to explain your course of action in specific detail to us ....
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See Art Eatman's suggestions in Post #3.

...other than "not be in the situation in the first place"?
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Why other than that?
 
Art Eatman said:
"While crossing the street there was a guy cussing and talking to himself."

Hmm. Stop? Back up? Turn away and cross elsewhere? Seems to me that aberrant behavior should be avoided.
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I agree. I did not have much time to react. and thought I could get across the street but the light changed .
 
Glenn E. Meyer said:
1. In general, it may not be wise to post your actions as they are discoverable and if not wise, may come back to haunt you.

2. Folks sometimes post such items as they want to receive praise as compared to an honest critique. So take these comments in that light.




Have you had a class from Givens? I don't think he would approve of your actions.

To conclude, it is good that you weren't harmed and didn't harm someone. However, you need to rethink your actions.
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Thank you for everything you said. States issue permits but they don't really give classes on the do's and don'ts
 
A citizen may not arrest or detain anyone because of the possibility of the person's doing something unlawful in the future.
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Reread my post. It was in response to the suspects inter-action with the OP. Not some future action
 
He then turned and walked away telling me how he would have kicked my butt if I did not have that gun. I thought that maybe I should have prone him out and called the police because he might pull that knife on someone else.
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That is what is discussed by the OP as a possible action. Attempting a citizen's arrest for attacking you is different. However, as I asked if he doesn't prone and walks away - you don't have the option of using lethal force. Police don't either unless there is a clear prediction of a crime continuing from the present situation. They might have more discretion on that.
 
My comment on backpedaling is that a class would show you that backward movement is unstable and slower than a person coming at you. In Tueller drills and the like you adopt a movement towards the side as to disrupt the opponent's path and give you time to fire. Note, I'm not recommending firing in this specific situation but talking about technique.

About minimizing damage. In class, we attacked roasts covered in denim with Delicas. Not a big knife. However, the damage was substantial. Also, if you've seen Craig Douglas' knife jabs to the face - you would hard put to block it if the opponent was close.

That's why the starting point of standing there was a point of critique. With the beginning of the interaction, one needed to move. If you ran - would he chase you? If you moved quickly away (not backwards) would that help. Could you start to yell - Help, police. Get away from me. (Helps with witnesses).

Standing there and suggesting proning put the action off on the wrong foot, so to speak. Carrying a hammer and every opponent is a nail to be pounded?

It might be embarrassing to flee, there are verbal techniques to defuse such when facing a panhandler. Now we don't know if they would work but they are a better move than standing there and drawing a gun given the scenario.

It happened so quickly as basic situational awareness and avoidance wasn't used.
 
It’s unlikely any controlled retreat (not turning around and fleeing) is going to be faster than a direct forward attack. Distance, of any type against a contact weapon, is your friend as it gives you longer to react to an attack. Obstacles are even better. When I say I accept deflection will likely result in injury it’s a mental preparation to avoid shock or panic if injury occurs. An opponent attacking with a knife is likely to cause you damage at contact range or even out to several yards (7 IIRC) if you are dependent on drawing a gun to defend yourself.

If you have participated in several simulated knife attacks and escaped “unharmed” in them I suggest, to view a phrase, you find quality training.
 
That's the point. The off axis moves work with longer distances. You are correct that if you are in contact distance you get hurt. That's why I had to wear a gadget on my hand and arm and go to physical therapy from a knife class. Fun to explain at work!

However, you make the great point that the OP should have been on the move from the beginning and not standing there. Instead, he thought about continuing the interaction and it was the opponent who left.

That's the difference between being in the fight you couldn't avoid and not being in one you could.

Three cheers for training: http://abcnews.go.com/US/female-high-school-student-disarms-male-student-knife/story?id=53019524
 
If I’m at contact or near contact distance I am treating the knife threat as if I’m unarmed. Once the aggressor has shown me he or she is unwilling to let me back away and continues physical aggression (actually attacks with the knife) it is my belief that the best chance of survival with the least injury is an overwhelming offense. Break an ankle or cause damage to the ligaments in the knee with your foot or hit hard to center line (nose, throat , solar plexus, groin) with your strong arm or knee and you are likely to end the attack. By going from retreat to attack quickly and decisively you can throw off your opponents initial attack and minimize the amount of damage done. Don’t dodge and dance and throw purely defensive blocks as every attack increases the cuhance of injury to you while doing little to end the threat. Block as you move forward to decidedly end the attack (the actual physical attack) as it begins. Give me enough distance to believe I can use lateral movement to draw and I see your point. I mean if I’m five yards away I can see where drawing may work. The holstered gun vs presented knife drills I have been involved in have involved contact distance and have been generally negative for the “good guy”
 
This is what I know about defense only contact drills (where no offense is taken by the defender): eventually the defender fails. Now granted these were drills where the attacker was not going to call off the attack and walk away but I never saw someone succeed at wearing out the attacker to the point he or she could not continue. You have to, in the midst of a physical attack, become the aggressor at some point

Note: by rule of the drill flight was not an option. You could gain distance but the floor was of limited size.
 
Reread my post. It [citizen's arrest] was in response to the suspects inter-action with the OP. Not some future action
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That's not what the OP mentioned, but how would you present evidence in support of such an act?
 
He asked me if I had any money, when I replied no so he says well I got this knife.

I stood there as he reached down and pulled up his right pants leg and grabbed a knife
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This was the OP’s account of the event that lead him to present his gun.

The taking of the property of another through the use of force or fear, constitutes Robbery. Introduction of a weapon and, well you figure it out.

As for introduction of evidence, witnesses statements, the plethora of hi-def video cameras that are EVERYWHERE now and lastly the clear account of the events by an upstanding citizen vs the telling of a story by some street urchin.

As a former LEO, ive taken plenty of statements by both types of reporting parties. Its not hard to tell the difference.
 
This was the OP’s account of the event that lead him to present his gun.
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It would take a lot more than his account to justify a citizen's arrest. There would be the other guy's story, and perhaps other evidence that would not clearly correspond to the OP's story. Eyewitness may truly believe something else.

And unless the OP could provide a preponderance of the evidence that he had been justified, he would be in a world of hurt in a civili proceeding.

And that's where the real risks of detaining someone present themselves.

You won't find me trying it.
 
Ok... wow.

OP has received a monumental amount of constructive criticism, which is not a bad thing. The appropriate argument has been made that the absolute best method of winning a confrontation is to avoid it altogether. I would remind everyone that you likely don't know the route, street corner, approach method of the individual armed with a knife, or potential (or lack thereof) escape routes of the OP. So in essence, we don't know how easy or difficult avoidance may have been. I will say to the OP, or anyone, that avoiding close contact with an individual that you perceive as a potential threat is best. However complete avoidance in every case is not possible, and I can understand your perceived safety as you believed you would not get caught by the light.

I understand exactly what Lohman is talking about, or at least I think I do. I am not necessarily willing to give up my weak side arm to a knife wielding assailant, but I am also not going to walk around and treat every grungy looking homeless guy like a suspect (though I will have a prepared plan for defense and disengagement). I have compassion. This compassion could get me in trouble, but it is a risk that I am willing to take. A friend of mine as a teenager showed compassion by purchasing a meal for a homeless person and offering $10.00 for his next meal. His kindness was rewarded with having a knife pulled on him and his wallet and all his money taken. He said that he would purchase a meal for the next person that appeared to be in need, but if he ever saw that same guy he would call the cops on him.

Preachy is an understatement. All of this discussion of tactics and training throws actual humanity out of the window. Flame on and roast me for all I'm worth. I have, at times, willingly put myself in a bad situation in an effort to help. I have co-workers who responded to a call of someone who wanted to commit suicide by cop. It was an Iraqi war veteran with a young family who just had a hard time coping. They all spoke to his wife, and decided they were willing to take the risk of approaching this guy without guns drawn (actually there was one cover officer who was prepared) because they had committed to not shooting him unless absolutely necessary. The first officer to approach had a gun pointed at him by the suspect, but he just talked to the guy. They eventually talked him into getting help and he is alive today. Were they using bad tactics? From a "tactical" standpoint, yes. From a human standpoint, no. Take it for what it's worth.
 
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