Hypothetical home defense scenario

R

Rex Feral

New member
Okay, here are the facts in this scenario: I am upstairs in my bedroom and hear glass breaking downstairs, I grab my Mossberg 590 and go to investigate. I creep down the stairs and surprise a knife-wielding junkie-type intruder in my living room, cover him with the shotgun and order him to leave, instead he charges to attack me, forcing me to defend myself.
What do you think the legal ramifications of each of the following actions would be, and which would you consider would be most favorably viewed by the jury:

a) I shoot the attacker dead with 2 3/4" #4 buck.

b) I shoot the attacker dead with 2 3/4" #4 buck BUT my 590 has my M9 bayonet affixed.

c) I kill the attacker with a thrust of the M9 bayonet affixed to the 590.


It seems to me that (c) would be using the least amount of force to end the threat to my life, but a BAYONET?!? Ye gads, how politically incorrect! I suspect I'd get drawn and quartered in the press.

I think (b) would probably be the worst of the lot, a GUN with a BAYONET? Ack, it must be an ASSAULT WEAPON!

I believe (a) would be the action least likely to cause extra difficulty to my legal defense.


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Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war.
 
Well, here's my take on it...

By virtue of the fact that you're going to investigate, you've just made a HUGE mistake.

Unless there are absolute reasons for you to move from your bedroom (such as positioning yourself between the potential threat and your children's rooms) you should NEVER EVER go investigate a possible intrusion.

Why?

By moving around in the house, you've given up just about every advantage there is, and reduced the situation to about a 50/50 breakdown of who will get whom first.

My own break down is as follows...

1. Lock bedroom door. (If someone tries to get in before I hear anything, my two dogs, who sleep in the bedroom, will sound the alarm.)

2. Get on far side of bed so that it is between me and the door. Keep lights OFF. Get shotgun from underbed rack, load, and take up barricade position with shotgun pointing at door.

3. Call police on phone. If phone cords are cut (very unlikely, as they exit at a very unusual and hidden place), call police on cell phone, and leave line open until police arrive.

4. If someone attempts to open locked bedroom door, warn them off loudly. If they enter, take all necessary steps to avoid becoming a casualty.

At that point, if you shoot someone, it's pretty likely that your legal problems will be almost nil, as the intruder tried to enter your "safe" room, from which you had no retreat, and you fired only to protect yourself, blah blah blah.

I look at it this way. My TV? My VCR? My silver? I have insurance to replace that crap. It's only items bought with paper.

But I've only got one life, and I'm not going to put it in the kind of danger that doing my own house sweep will do. That's a job for the police. They're trained to do it.
 
Astute observation...and recall, nowadays, you don't only have to contend with the criminal jury, but the civil trial that will follow when the dead junky's family will try to sue the pants off of you and your family for causing the wrongful death of this poor, misunderstood noble soul that you just so viciously and cruelly splattered all over your living room. nevermind he had your VCR under his arm and was strung out on crack.

My advice? avoid ANYTHING that can give a lawyer a foothold in a case against you. Bayonets? Nope. Side saddles? None for me, thanks. Vang-Comp style porting? Maybe. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, it makes shooting so much gentler. This is just a sporting gun, you see...

My $0.02. Others here have far more experience than I do.

Mike


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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
 
Mike Irwin posted while I was replying. Good points. I would likely do the same, the only difference being that I would probably take up a position at the top of the stairs. For some reason I like to know whats out there...You still have massive advantages...you know where they will have to be to ascend the steps...they have a long 10-12 feet to cover, uphill...in a killing zone...My interior doors are cheeseball and I'd hate the idea of some BG with a gun outside it shooting in, even blindly, with my wife in there, too.

Mike

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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
 
Okay, A similiar situiation:

There is a two story house (with a basement). There are exactly two exits, both on the first floor,and both within sight of each other. The 2nd floor is occupied by two bedrooms, the hallway/stairway between them and nothing else. On, the 1st floor, there is a family room, kitchen/dining room, bedroom and bathroom, with dining room being the main hub of the house. As a rule, at least one bedroom on each floor is regurally used. The basement is entered though the outside, and does not provide a point of entery to the main floors, so is ignored. The windows on the first floor are either at least 6 feet off the ground, or are picture windows(which don't open. Thus, I'm more worried about the doors.

Okay, now that that's set up: What would be the best course of action if someone broke into the first floor, though either exit? As I mentioned before, at least one family member sleeps in the bedroom on the first floor, and would be the first to come into contact with a burglar. At least one sleeps in the upstairs bedroom, both of which have locks.

The member upstairs has easy access to a loaded shotgun. The member downstairs can have easy access to a loaded handgun.

Now that it is laid out, what would be the best action for both member if a break-in were to occur?

Also, Would an Extended Magazine or ghost rings on the shotgun hurt the case for the shooter if the burgler made contact with a speeding shotshell?

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The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
-Thomas Jefferson
 
Forget the Bayonet... has no place in an HD scenario... jury would have a field-day with it..
Most importantly NEVER...NEVER shot at a target you cannot see.

Ben
 
The second scenario is probably best answered with an understanding between upstairs and downstairs family members: you BOTH hole up in the bedroom and call the cops. Or the upstairs guy sets up at the stairs and the downstairs guy stays in his room. Either way there is a possibility of one of you shooting the other if you both go to investigate something going bump in the night.

Mike

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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
 
While it can be good advice in some situations, I get tired of the "never go investigate" mantra. Yes, if the alarm is screaming, the dog is barking (and perhaps biting), the intruders are hollering and so forth, by all means "hole up" and wait for them to come to you. However, if the cat knocks a highball glass off the counter at 0300, are you really going to hunker down and call the cops? Most likely, you'll end up going to investigate because there is not additional and ongoing auditory signs of an intrusion happening. The techniques of how you investigate are beyond the scope of the question posed here, but one basic thing is to take the situation seriously. You may be 99% certain that it's nothing, but still search as if you knew the Manson family was paying a call.

As to the bayonet question; if the situation is clearly self-defense (as it is described) then it shouldn't matter on the criminal side of the investigation. However, the cops and the DA are humans, with the human tendency to be distracted by extraneous stuff and personal prejudice...so the bayonet isn't going to help. On the civil side of the issue, you'll probably be financially crucified for using the bayonet. Americans find "cold steel" off-putting. Most would rather be shot than stabbed, if the hypothetical question is asked.

Rosco
 
Roscoe,

Of course there are levels involved here. The question, and my answer, addressed what to do if it is evident that someone has broken into your home.

But, the wisest choice remains that if you have good reason to think, or actually KNOW, that someone is in your home, you're a fool looking to die if you start blundering around in the dark.

If you call the police, they come and search your house and all they find is that your cat was on a bender, well, you're embarassed, and that's about it.

As you note, a cat isn't likely to set off the alarm system, if you have one. An intruder is. That's a hint right there that something is wrong. :)
 
Actually the question was meant to ask what you think would happen if I legally defended myself with a weapon that may or may not have a bayonet affixed, not weather or not I should have gone downstairs to investigate the noise.

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Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war.
 
Sorry, Rex, I read way too much in your original question then.

How about this...

The bayonet is ONLY useful if you're going to cook him a marshmallow before you call the police....
 
I think it's odd that if the BG attacked me with a pointy thing, and I defended myself with a pointy thing, that would be OK.
If the BG attacked me with the same pointy thing and I defended myself with a gun, that'd be OK too.
However if the BG attacks me with the pointy thing and I defend myself with a pointy thing on the end of a GUN, well that's just not cricket then, is it? ;)
Not that I'd ever use the bayonet for defense, I just wondered how bad you'd be hung out to dry If you did.
 
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While it can be good advice in some situations, I get tired of the "never go investigate" mantra. Yes, if the alarm is screaming, the dog is barking (and perhaps biting), the intruders are hollering and so forth, by all means "hole up" and wait for them to come to you. However, if the cat knocks a highball glass off the counter at 0300, are you really going to hunker down and call the cops? Most likely, you'll end up going to investigate because there is not additional and ongoing auditory signs of an intrusion happening. The techniques of how you investigate are beyond the scope of the question posed here, but one basic thing is to take the situation seriously. You may be 99% certain that it's nothing, but still search as if you knew the Manson family was paying a call.
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Two items that may be of use:
1. An intercom. Upon hearing the "cat knock over the highball glass", you hole up and hit the intercom in your bedroom and tell whoever/whatever it is that you are calling the police and that they had better move out...
2. Master Light Switch (I believe you can buy all the gear at your local Radio Shack...) Hit a switch in the master bedroom and turn on all the lights in the house. If you "present" a warning via the intercom and hit all the house lights I give you a 99.9% guarantee that if the home invaders stay, they are more intersted in killing you than robbing you and also foolish as hell. Either way, you can communicate with anyone in the house, the police and turn on all the lights, taking away the attackers element of surprise. After all you do know your house, better than they do, don't you?

Jon
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rex Feral:
I think it's odd that if the BG attacked me with a pointy thing, and I defended myself with a pointy thing, that would be OK. (snip)
[/quote]

It seems that you are expecting logic, rational thought, and consistency to apply. They won't. The extraneous circumstances are very likely to influence the investigation, whether you are charged, and the outcome of your trial. In case you doubt this, consider the recent O.J. Simpson trial. Had O.J. been a working-class, Irish-American fry cook, then he would probably be on death row.

I don't like the fact that things that are not really relevant to the event being scrutinized can influence the outcome. The fact is, they DO. The bayonet may or may not be helpful in surviving the attack, but it will almost certainly NOT be helpful to your cause in the aftermath.

It ain't fair, but you didn't really expect it to be...did you?

Rosco
 
Psychologist hat on:

There are some data on this type of scenario
in the literature on agressive behavior and psych/law journals. This exact one hasn't been done.

So this is a generalization from other studies.

You get in trouble when your defensive action violates the jury's scheme for self-defense.
They would see you as aggressive and not acting in a prudent manner to defend yourself.

The bayonet would be counter productive.

Give you an example , sorry the reference is at work.

You are a burgular downstairs. You go shoot him. You kill him. However:

1. You kill him with a well aimed shot or
by an accident like an ND or a richocet.

2. You can be a man or a woman.

Men who shoot the dude competently get off.
Men who shoot the dude by accident get convicted more.
Women who shoot the dude competently get convicted.
Women who kill him accidentally get off.

This is because of the gender related expectations for aggressive behavior.

So I would bet the bayonet is not a good thing.

That you had to approach to use it would indicate that had closed to close a distance or something like that and are too aggressive.

That's my evaluation.

Glenn
 
VERY interesting. Can I see that reference?

Mike

PS In snobby intellectual circles (with which I have passing experience) that question often means 'I don't believe you, prove it.' ;) On the contrary here...that sounds very logical given, as you said, expectations of how different genders are 'supposed' to respond to aggression.

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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
 
Question: Would having an extended magazine on a home defense shotgun hurt you badly(in a legal battle) if you shot the perp when he trapped you in your room during a break in?

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The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
-Thomas Jefferson
 
Good Evening All-

It's questionable if you would even want the bayonet lug on the shotgun! "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury...it appears that Mr. Feral even went so far as to make arrangements so that a razor-sharp stabber could be fixed to his assault shotgun." ;)

Knives, bayonets, pikes, razors, and stilettos are viewed as "silent tools of assassins" by the gentle masses. I'd distance myself from anything that further increases the "badass" factor of the shotgun anymore than is practical.

An intruder in your home with a knife in the middle of the night isn't stopping by to enjoy a cup of tea with you....no need to get within stabbin' distance, either.

Get a shotgun with a Hans Vang or Scattergun Technologies function package and you'll be good for 99.9% of home-invasion scenarios.

Regards,

~ Blue Jays ~
 
All bedrooms here at Casa McC are on the top floor. I'd take up a position at the top of the stairs with the 870 while Wife clutches her first Model Trooper in one hand and calls 911.Homeowner's insurance will cover the stuff downstairs, but any perp creeping up those steps will be met with Deadly Force.

Bayonet? Nah....

Extended mag tubes serve to stabilize the weapon,so do sidesaddles. Mag tubes also tighten up slug groups, and I hunt w/ my 870s. Not worried about legal sensitivities.
One thing here, the 870s was my duty weapon, and there's lots of documentation for my experience with same. No atty will have an easy time painting me as irresponsible and/or a novice, or the originator of an ND.

As for PC #$%^&*(, these shotguns are Wingmasters, not Terminators,Persuaders, or Police Models. Small point,tho...
 
Okay, another aspect in a home defense scenario:

Assuming during a break in, the people living in the house are in barricade positions and the perp blunders into the line of fire of one of those positions. Should the armed resident at one of those postions fire a warning shot or shout a warning? Or would it be legally defensable to shoot to kill considering the resident is trapped, even if the perp is unaware of the resident's presence?



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The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
-Thomas Jefferson
 
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