Hydro-shok +p+

George,
I'm retired Army. Hats off to the SEAL's. I don't envy their job, but like the airborne, I'll bet their esprit de corps can't be bettered. I do agree that for suppressed fire, the 45ACP is a very good balance, whereas the 9's effectiveness is in large part to its velocity, something supressors do not care for. Nothing against the 9 in 115 grain +P+ form, but I learned a long time ago that the smaller the caliber, the more accurately you must place your shots, and the more you depend on expansion. Beats me, other than the politicos, why we went to the 9 hardball for the troops. I would have told the powers that be to go spit and armed my people with 45 Hydra shocks or similar, but the informed seldom get to call those shots.
 
No person here, no agency, or any confirmed data will ever make dear ole George believe that 147 grain rounds expand. He has made up his mind and it is futile to try and change it. He uses his real name, not some silly moniker, and therefore, is omnicient. Anyone not using their real name is either on the run from the law, or secretly working for some organization trying to arm everyone with low power, unexpanding bullets. But George knows better. And after seeing how stubborn he is on point, and how frustrated he can make people, it is no small wonder he has to carry a firearm.
 
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For what it is worth only. I realize this may not have any bearing on a bullets performance on anything other than the targets mentioned. Last year, I shot a mule deer with two 9mm 147 grain XTPs. The bullets did not exit the animal and I was able to recover both bullets. They expanded just like the pictures in the magazines. The deer dropped in its tracks (the 9mms were secondary to one shot right behind the front shoulders with an '06 150 grain Hornady Interlok at 3000 fps so the fact that it dropped with the 9mm very well might not mean a thing). This afternoon I shot a jackrabbit with the same load. The bullet did exit the rabbit, but if the exit hole is any indication, the bullet expanded in the jackrabbit. I shoot this bullet because it hits dead on with the fixed sights.
 
don't shoot it's me,
OK, try to confuse everyone with BS. Then change your “handle” when you have been discredited. How long have you been driving an 18 wheeler? When did you hang up the CB and get a komputer?

444,
I am very glad you have had remarkable results hunting with a handgun loaded with relatively low power ammo with low potential for expansion.

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona
 
BETTER THAN ROCKS

Anecdotal evidence suggests that modern bullet designs allow expansion at lower velocities than conventional HP ammo.

That said, if anyone doubts whether velocity helps, please explain 308 vs 30-06 vs 300WM vs 300 Kong.

THAT said, in the 9x19 (civilian defense), highly recommend a correct 115g JHP (I prefer the R-P bullet for its reliable feed shape and ability to both expand rapidly AND retain its weight) at minimum lauch velocity of 1300fps.

This specific bullet/speed expands and penetrates. I like it.

L.E. applications suggest a better bullet to be the Speer Gold Dot.

This subject is not worth slinging disrespect. No enemies here (perhaps misguided advice, but meant to help).
 
Ah, good old George. Still living in a cave, clacking rocks together to make fire, wearing skins...

JOIN US IN THE MODERN AGE, GEORGE! :D

Long time no see, hope all is well.

Anyway, quite frankly, you ARE living in the past regarding 147s, George. The first generation 9mm 147s had all the expansive properties of a slowly moving brick, but that's no longer the case.

The bullets have generally been redesigned, and the 147s are now expanding nicely.

Remember, it's not only velocity that's the biggest contributor to bullet expansion, it is DESIGN. If velocity were the only factor, I'd be able to recover and reload the 125-gr. Nyclad bullets I fire through my snubbie .38 Spl., as they simply wouldn't expand at those low velocities.

But guess what? They DO expand. It's because they have a large hollowpoint with thin walls and are made from nylon covered soft lead. It's the design.

Anyway, here's a link for you on the Speer Gold Dot 147 gr. bullet as it was tested by Marty Fackler's people.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs9.htm


It's about halfway down the page, under some information on 124-gr. Gold Dots.

Quite frankly, expansion of a .355 caliber slug to over .55-.57, WITH nearly 15 inches of penetration is one hell of a good showing.

Finally, to all...

Can we dispense with the "STAND DOWN RANGE WHILE I SHOOT AND YOU TO SEE HOW WELL MY AMMO PERFORMS" bull****?

It's counterproductive and it doesn't say a THING relevant to the issue of ammo effectiveness.
 
Dear George,

First off, I have never driven an 18 wheeler or owned a CB(although I am a big fan of "Smokey and the Bandit"). Secondly, what BS did I sling in my post? And lastly, what the heck is a "Komputer"?

Regards,
Dave
In sunny L.A. where 147 grain bullets do expand
 
The professionals (as opposed to the amateurs) in the field of bullet terminal performance, recommend the 147's

Thats the biggest line of BS I have seen. Most professionals are moving away from the 147 to either bigger calibers or smaller faster 9mm's.
PAT
 
Well before it can be false that professionals are recommending 147's, we have to define professionals. Perhaps I should have been more clear.

Professional's in the field of bullet effectiveness, are recommending 147's. Professionals use the scientific method, amateurs grab their handy dandy calculator and tell us all the 115gr FMJ 9mm's are more effective than 147gr HP's because they have more Kinetic Energy.

A lot of people on the other hand are just moving up to a bigger caliber. Were it up to me I'd recommend 10mm over 9mm any day of the week. I'd also recommend it over .45, or any other handgun cartridge for that matter. As far as people moving to high speed low weight 115's... who are these people? What department are they working for? Do you have any PROOF? Anything you can give us besides you're all knowing opinion? For all the claims you make you certainly are lacking in evidence.

Getting back to George's earlier post in which he claims he can tell from looking at a 22.8KB image that it was shot into gravel... I'll go to the trouble of getting you more evidence that it was not. Until then you can see the original posting here: http://www.pistolsmith.com/viewtopic.php?topic=1636&forum=24&43

It is the 9th post.

Funny thing is you're the first and only person to claim it was shot into gravel.

-Morgan
 
147gr

George,
Most of the "high profile" agencies or units use 147gr in their 9mm's. I don't believe they would use them if they were "ineffective". They are all pleased with the 147gr.

Navy SEALs- 147gr Hi-Shock(9ms)
LASD- 147gr Ranger SXT
SDPD- 147gr Hi-Shock
FBI HRT- 147gr Hydro-Shock (now uses 1911's)
LAPD- 147gr Ranger SXT

Just to name a few.
 
Mike Irwin,

You have given me a lot of good advice over the years and I thank you for that. I also respect you for being one of the few people on the forum confident enough to post your REAL name!

I took your advice and went to http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs9.htm. I don’t think this htm made your point. There was a lot of general comments inferring heavier is better but in the test data they did not compare heavier, lower power ammo having lower “potential” for expansion with full power 115 gr 9x19 ammo which is proven to be more powerful and inherently likely to expand more due to the higher velocity.

I am constantly studying data on commercial and handloads for 9x19 & 45 ACP. I have not yet found any data that shows 147 gr ammo is as powerful as 115 gr ammo in 9x19 or that 230 gr ammo is as powerful as 185 gr ammo in 45 ACP. I am VERY skeptical of posters here who claim ammo with far lower velocity gives expansion like high velocity ammo. If a bullet manufacturer had a technique to make a low velocity bullet expand a lot they could make a high velocity bullet expand a lot more thus maintaining the power & expansion advantage of 115 gr in 9x19 and 185 gr in 45ACP.

It is scary that a lot of CCW people have misguided advice and carry low power ammo with low potential for expansion causing a high potential for over-penetration risking injury to innocents.

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona

P.S. Don’t forget to evaluate your CCW ammo for muzzle flash!
 
"I have not yet found any data that shows 147 gr ammo is as powerful as 115 gr ammo in 9x19"

Nobody here used the term "power"..we are talking expansion but you keep harping on the power thing....and if bullet manufacturers made the 115s any easier to expand, there would be little recovered weight at that velocity.....and less chance for penetration....

Hector Elizondo
 
George,

STOP CHANGING YOUR PARAMETERS!

First you're screaming about expansion, and now when you're given information that shows that new generations of 147-gr. bullet do expand at 9mm velocities you start talking about power.

My link was to show you that, apparently contrary to your beliefs, there ARE 147-gr. 9mm loadings that expand very nicely.

I can't even conceive as to why you'd think that results that show expansion to half an inch combined with good penetration fails to make the point.

I don't think anyone here has claimed that the 147s are as "powerful" as the 115s. But, quite frankly, the difference of a 50 or 100 foot pounds doesn't mean NEARLY as much as adequate penetration.

The 147s are showing good expansion and good penetration. I don't know what the testing for the 115s is showing.

BUT, if they both show the same amount of penetration and the same amount of expansion, but differ some in the raw power they generate, as far as I'm concerned they are BOTH still perfectly adequate defensive handgun rounds.

As far as "lower potential for expansion," please QUIT HARPING ON THAT! The data is there that shows that this particular round, of the second generation of 147-gr. bullets, expands, and expands well.

You are CONTINUING to equate velocity as being the ONLY factor in the expansion of handgun bullets.

IT'S NOT! GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD!

Repeat after me!

Velocity is NOT the sole factor in a bullet's expansion!

Bullet design and construction are CRITICAL factors in whether a bullet expands or not, as important, if not more so, than velocity.

As others have repeatedly stated, a properly designed bullet traveling at a modest velocity is STILL PERFECTLY CAPABLE of expansion.

As for the risk of overpenetration, that is a smokescreen PURE AND SIMPLE. Within the past 5 years, please give me 5 referenced examples of someone shooting THROUGH their intended target and hitting an innocent on the other side.

Guess what, you'll have problems coming up with a SINGLE credible instance of that happening in any 5-year period.

Pure MISSES are much more dangerous to innocents, and there are precious few of THOSE in a given year in civilian defensive encounters.

George, don't talk to any of us about scary. It's scary that you're still stuck in the stone ages on these subjects, and you REFUSE to change your tune even when you're beaten about the head and shoulders with enough proof to choke a horse.

As long as I've known you you've had a penchant for adamantly REFUSING to admit that what was valid 15 or 20 years ago may no longer be valid simply because the technology has changed, not to mention a most delightful penchant for focusing on those criteria that matter the least as the basis for your decision-making processes.

Quite frankly, that sort of mental statis is what is frightening.
 
Exerpt from an article for you, George...

" Mr. Eugene Wolberg, of the San Diego Police Department, reviewed the
performance of the department's issue 9mm 147gr JHP ammunition by measuring
bullet penetration and expansion after each shooting incident. (27) The 9mm 147gr bullet produced a 13" average penetration
in human tissue and reliably
expanded in the 27 shootings to the human torso reported in the study. Since
the study was published, an additional 17 documented shootings have exhibited
nearly identical results. Mr. Wolberg's study of San Diego Police Department
shootings also compared bullet performance in human tissue with the performance of bullets fired into properly prepared and
calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin. Average bullet penetration in both tissue and gelatin was 13"."


Full article, which has some very interesting things to say about 115 and 124 gr 9mm bullets, can be found here:

http://www.povn.com/~4n6/Trnsmgfd.htm


It's yet another condemnation of Marshall & Sanow's "One Shot Stop" stuff.
 
George is an OK guy. He and I used to scream at each other all the time over on the old Compuserve Firearms Forum.

It's just that at times he seems to be bound and determined NOT to expand his thinking as new developments come about. If it was true 25 years ago, it must still be true today, no matter what advances have taken place.

This continued harping on "lower expansion potential" is a perfect example.

At one time that was true.

With today's highly evolved bullets, though, what once was true is now much less so.
 
Mike, that link provided some great information. Good stuff. That is the first article of that kind that I thought made any sense. The most significant thing mentioned was the fact that there are so many variables involved in a shooting, that comparing the results is almost useless. Yes, some general trends can be picked up, but specific details, no. This makes hunting bullet performance a walk in the park. They are all wearing the same thing. They are either spooked or not. Most of them are in good health............... Not so with humans.
 
Mike Irwin,

1) I went to http://www.povn.com/~4n6/Trnsmgfd.htm as you recommended. It starts by saying:
“This site is one of the transmogrified. It seems to perpetuate the inaccurate lies and myths regarding wound ballistics. This note is to alert you that there is misinformation at this site. “
With this intro, what can you believe on the site?

2) You stated on velocity:
“Velocity is NOT the sole factor in a bullet's expansion!”
I agree but since there are no explosives in the bullet, it is the velocity which is the actuator of any tendency to expand. The lower the velocity, the lower the “potential” for expansion.

3) You stated on over-penetration:
“As for the risk of overpenetration, that is a smokescreen PURE AND SIMPLE. Within the past 5 years, please give me 5 referenced examples of someone shooting THROUGH their intended target and hitting an innocent on the other side.
Guess what, you'll have problems coming up with a SINGLE credible instance of that happening in any 5-year period.”

American Handgunner, NOV/DEC 1998 Page 16 “NYPD GOES ISP”
... The round selected was the Remington 115 gr +P+ at 1300 fps.
...The department studied the performance of the older ammo with growing alarm.
... Six bystanders in one two year period were hit by subsonic 147 gr JHPs fired by transit officers ... that had gone through an object first.
... The 115 gr 9mm +P+ is the cartridge the Illinois State Police made famous. It is probably the most devastating manstopper in its caliber. Secret Service uses the exact same Remington +P+ that NYPD adopted. They are sure the city’s concern that
overpenetration of bullets be minimized while stopping power is maximized.

Also reference Gun Tests AUG 96 Performance Test: 9mm Handgun Ammunition.
Fired rounds into fabric covered gelatin. They rated the Winchester Supreme 147 gr SXT as being unsatisfactory because its low velocity did not cause bullet expansion and the low power. They rated the Corbon 115gr 1350 fps as the best,
making a wound like a 44 magnum.

4) HIGH PENETRATION IS DESIRABLE?
It is hard for me to accept that a slower, less powerful 9mm bullet is more effective than a faster more powerful bullet of the same caliber. I am afraid some people equate a heavier bullet to higher power and that is a mistake with 147 gr in 9x19.
I suspect, these people try to justify lower expanding and lower power heavy bullets by claiming one needs 1 to 2 feet of penetration. If penetration is so important, in 9x19, why not use a more powerful 115 gr bullet designed to expand less (like a low expanding 147 gr bullet) so you:
a) have more power than 147 gr
b) have more shock than 147 gr
c) have expansion equal to 147 gr
d) have greater penetration than 147 gr

5) You stated on expansion:
“I can't even conceive as to why you'd think that results that show expansion to half an inch combined with good penetration fails to make the point.”
My point was the article at http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs9.htm failed to compare
tests on the heavy, slower bullets with faster & more powerful 115 gr ammo. WHY?
Gelatin tests are easy to rig. Showing ONLY the test data on slow, low power bullets and claiming these were very effective rounds must make anyone skeptical of this report. One needs comparative data to select the best ammo. If the heavier
bullets were best why didn’t they show the test data on the other ammo???
It read like many reports I have seen on the 230 gr 45 ACP. “If won’t penetrate 2 or 3, people the round is not effective!!!”

Please point me to a test comparing 115 gr Corbon 9x19 ammo to 147 gr ammo in 9x19.

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona

P.S. The Corbon 115gr ammo I tested has nearly zero flash at night. It is quite remarkable. How is your self defense ammo for flash?
 
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