Hunting Versus Killing

I have NO problem with people feeding and protecting their families. I don't care for the glory of carnage that many varmint shooters revel in. But it is their right, and even a neccessity at times.

My reason for weighing-in on this thread was to support the points made by Gizmo99 and others -- this from a former hunter, and current admirer of firearms. I spent my childhood on the hunt. From the time I was 5 years old, I used to shoot .22's, until I was 16 when I sold my 12 gauge -- there was a lot of hunting and plinking going-on. I remember my first rabbit hunt. I wasn't a good aim. I wounded the thing several times with my .22, and dad had to go finish it off for me. Neither he, nor I was very happy with the situation. NOT a clean kill. I grew older and got better at my aim, to the point where I'd come home with enough rabbit to eat for a week. Deer, duck, and other game were also on the menu. And I ate it all. I'd do it again if I had to. But I don't want to. Doesn't make me feel a sense of accomplishment. If it makes you feel good, then fine.

But my point here was to let those with [in my opinion] mature, healthy, and respectful attitudes toward nature and life know that I appreciate them and I think they give hunters a good name. I know peolple that I consider to be good hunters, and I know people that I consider to be good killers. The two are not always one and the same...
 
I just KNOW I'm gonna piss somebody off here, so I'll just apologize in advance by saying that I don't mean *you*, I mean some other guy who resembles you... the guy I'm talking about wouldn't bother to post here - he already knows it all. Face it, I'm a crank - not old enough to be a curmudgeon but looking forward to that period of life so I can justify my crankiness.

Anyhoo, my pet peeve is the guy who shows up to go hunting with a lot of gadgets. He's got a stainless steel gun with a plastic stock - he paid extra for that plastic stock but isn't really sure why a stamped out piece of crap is more expensive than nicely finished walnut.

He's got a lazer range finder but has no clue what his bullet drop is - he's only fired his plastic gun about 50 times at 100 yards. When you inquire about bullet drop, he opines his .340 Scudbuster will drop about 3" at 500 yards (cuz the ammo costs $60 a box), but when you ask why he needs a range finder since he apparently has a lazer gun, he isn't sure what you mean.

He's got an 8 X 20 scope that looks like something the Defense Department rejected as being too complex and expensive - and of course with that high power scope, he's absolutely blind within 50 yards where he'll see most deer.

He's got a GPS thingie, but no map - he didn't even know you could get topo maps at the hardware store. When you show him your map, he points confidently at a spot ten miles away and says "Ah, this is where we are, huh?".

He's got a three pound revolver, a water bag thingie in a backpack with a tube leading to his mouth, a knife a foot long, a brand new expensive camo suit in green leaves and tree bark, that he bought to hunt in brown grass and brush.
When you ask where his frame pack is, he looks blank - he's planning on dragging a deer out through 3 or 4 miles of rough mountain country.

And you have to take this guy along, because he's your brother in law or the friend of a friend or your boss. So when you get to the top of that awful ridge, you tell him to just edge along the crest over that-away, and you'll go this-aways and we'll all meet at 1100 over there-away.

And five minutes later as you edge along the crest, here comes dummy right down the center of the valley you've walked three miles and climbed 2000 feet to glass. He's breaking brush and making as much noise as a herd of panicked cattle while a dozen deer are making tracks out of the valley ahead of him.
He has no clue. When you explain to him later that he blew your mornings hunt, as well as his own, he still has no clue - he had walked over and look down into the valley you sent him to, and he didn't see a thing, so he just went the other way.

This, or a variation of this, has happened to me too many times. So much that I will no longer hunt with most people (a loner with a gun!!!!). I've even lost a few friends that way, but hey, to me hunting is a serious business that is based around experience and knowledge rather than gadgets. I think I'm becoming a minority in that. I see too many people with plastic and electronic whoozits and whazzits who spend more time with their nose in a Cabella's catalog than out in the boonies. They don't need to know anything about game because they've spent a lot of money.

And that's my opinion - OK, it's my "rant". Throw your gadgets away, spend some time in the woods, move slow, look, listen, observe, remember. You'll be a better hunter.
 
that explains it

Keith, I admit to being that guy, minus the gadgets, and that's only because I can't afford them. But I've been accused of ruining hunts for heading the wrong way up or down this or that razorback ridge or gulley...so I gave it up.

But I do know a "loner with a gun." He's a Wisconsin wild man, goes out alone, with a rustbucket lever action 30-30. He doesn't want anyone with him, to him everyone is a *you* as described in your post. He carries no fancy gear, just a compass and map, disappears for a few days, and oddly enough comes back looking more hygienic than when he set off.

And always with a buck in tow...
 
Keith, Robert Ruark, in his "The Old Man And The Boy", referred to this kind of "hunter" as "Mr. Abercrombie and Fitch". :)

I read somewhere that "ethics is how ya act when nobody's looking". Who has more opportunity to not do right than a hunter? He's usually alone, or far enough away from his hunting buddies that he can lie about some wrongdoing. Which is why a caring parent should arrange that the younger kids learn about hunting from an ethical adult: It helps instill both conscience and a sense of responsibility. I know of no other activity where this is such a large part of the "deal".

Art
 
I am a predator. I eat vegetation, and grain, but I also kill, and eat. I gladly accept my part in the chain of life. I kill plentiful game, keeping the species I hunt healthy and meaningful, and I respect the animals I kill. I honor the animals I hunt, because they must be of value for me to pursue them. I expect other dangerous predators to eat me if they can, and when I am gone, my body will surely be food for something, even as small living things exist within as I write this. If reincarnation exists, and I come back as a game animal, that's fine, too. I have no complaints. I celebrate life, value and savor it. That is what hunting means to me.
 
My gun has a plastic stalk:( but I swear I have more with wood. Alaska, Kodiak especially is one good place to have a synthetic stalk and stainless gun. There is soo much moisture in alaska, and especially around the coast, and on islands, that the weather, and salt water can really be rough on a gun. Basic cleaning, and caring for them goes a long ways, but givin the same owner, and same care, the synthetic gun will live longer. In some areas...Texas, and drier climates, I really think there's any difference...except maybe the stalk wont scratch and will look prettier longer(if you consider flat black pretty:D)
 
Art,

I'm not so sure it's an ethics issue, exactly (though that's certainly an element), but rather it's this notion of "instant gratification." If you don't want to bother going to the range regularly for practice, you just buy a "better" gun and more powerful optics. You don't want to scout the country you're hunting, so you buy a GPS and talk someone else (me) into taking you along.
And more than that, they take hunting as some sort of competitive sport, as if killing the first deer or the biggest deer is the entire goal - rather than just enjoying hunting for its own sake.
And you're right about many of these guys coming to the sport late. You see this in Alaska a lot, they move here and figure "I'm in Alaska, I should go hunting". And you know, I WANT people to hunt, but for its own sake, not as some sort of weird "buddy thing" or as a competition, but simply as a way to enjoy yourself. If you don't enjoy just being in the woods to see stuff, you probably shouldn't hunt.


Romulus,

If I had to boil down "how to be a good hunter" in just a few words, I'd tell you to SLOW DOWN. Hike past where the other hunters are likely to be and then just move into the wind a few slow steps at a time, pause and look around, squat and look low under the brush canopy 18" or so over the ground. After you've completely (and quietly) checked 360 degrees, move another few yards and do it again. If you're moving more than a 1/4 mile or so in an hour, you're going too fast.
You won't get bored. If you move slow enough and quietly enough and look hard enough you'll see all kinds of things that you never noticed before - all kinds of small critters and birds, tracks, droppings, etc. And you'll see deer, more deer than you imagined were in the area. I've shot deer in their beds many times. I've dropped back behind the rest of my party and shot deer lying within yards of where they had just passed. Always look behind you because frequently even if you miss a deer, they'll stand to look after you pass and they get your scent.
Deer are everywhere and most people have NO idea how many deer there are in a given area - far more than you might imagine and many of them are almost entirely nocturnal, you'll never see them from a stand, you have to find them.

90% of the deer will just lay low against the ground and even flatten their ears down to become part of the terrain - difficult to see at first but with practice they just stand right out. 90% of hunters walk right past them.

That's the gist of it - the rest can't be taught, it has to be learned - and the only way to learn is to slow down.
 
Bad,

I live in Kodiak, and as you point out it's the wettest saltiest place in North America. None of my guns are rusty, none of them have ever "changed their zero" because of swelling. Every fall I squirt a little sno-seal between the stock and the barrel and action. I wipe my guns down every evening with an oily rag when I use them. No problem.
I think this whole thing is just a "sell" so that gun manufacturers can convince people to pay $150 extra for a $3 plastic stock.

I admit though, that this is almost entirely an esthetics issue - there's no reason NOT to have a plastic gun (except that they charge you MORE, which is nuts). If I had a stainless steel gun I'd paint it black so I didn't scare game with it, no big deal.
 
Keith R. I get a kick out of your post!
Most of the folks on this forum are the type that would be welcome to hunt with me anytime. The dude in your post probably isn't here. (He's busy checking his stocks/investments on the net). I don't remember his name but I met him. He drives a new Ford Excursion. Lawyer or accountant or somethin. got a $1000 bird dog that disappears over the horizon while he's talkin on his cell phone. heeheehee.
Most of us are folks you wouldn't mind sharing a hunt with. We're ethical, gentle men and women with a love of nature. My father-in-law used to give me crap about hunting until I told him the only difference between him and me was I do my own killing, he expects somebody else to do it for him. The subject hasn't come up since.
I just finished re-reading Ruark's "Old Man and the Boy" for the umpteenth time. good read.
 
A response for Art Eatman

By threat I mean killing an animal when there is a specific risk to people, livestock or companion animals. I think it's a bit extreme to suggest that anything we kill we should eat. Maybe I am attempting to draw a line between between hunting as we know it and pest control.

I don't hunt coyotes but if I see one I will shoot it, same with porcupines because of the threat to my dogs. Ground hogs present a threat to cattle and horses. The lowly opossum carries a bacterial infection that is harmful to horses and is a threat. Feral dogs will attack and shooting if they are threatening doesn't cause me too much concern.

The definitions of threat will vary and may be take to extremes. My wife doesn't much care for the squirrels that ravage her bird feeders but that doesn't mean we are going to shoot them.

What I find offensive are people who hunt animals only for the rack, fur, organs that someone thinks are the natural form of Viagara, or for the sheer delight of just killing something.
 
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