Hunting Versus Killing

A

Al Thompson

Staff Alumnus
Several of our members have mentioned using various techniques to harvest game. Firearms of all sorts, bows, spears and the odd stick of dynamite.

My personal perspective is that the hunting quits when I decide to kill an animal. Once I've crossed that Rubicon, I owe it to the animal that the kill is as clean and quick as I can make it.

So - I don't use marginal calibers or equipment that I don't have a high degree of competence with. For instance - I intend to bow hunt soon - but until I become proficient with a powerful bow, you won't find me hanging out in the woods with one.

I also would not have a problem with a (as a concept) death ray that kills instantly.

Thoughts?

Giz
 
A quick clean safe kill is the most important aspect of hunting.
For me, hunting ends not when you decide to shoot, but when the animal has been shot.
Then you know it is a "hit" and not a "wish".
I think that the "hunt" and the "kill" are equally exciting.
And you must definately be competant enough with your weapon that you can honor the game you hunt with a merciful kill.
Happy Hunting All...................
 
Have to agree Giz.. a clean kill is a must. you owe it to the animal. The "hunt" is the stalk and the experience, the kill is something else. After you pull the trigger is when all the work starts.

Having said that read my post under spear hunting, it still sounds like a hell of an adventure.
 
Well said Mr. Giz,
I agree with you on the need for clean kills. Don't be too worried about the archery equipment. As in all hunting/killing accuracy is your main concern. The new superfast bows don't kill them any deader than the previous generations of archery equip. The marketing depts are trying very hard to convince we-the-consumers that we need to keep buying thier latest-greatest. A 55# bow with the right arrow will shoot clear thru a deer with the right shot placement. The new superzingmaster will shoot farther and faster and sure its nice but don't fret too much about the power factor.
BTW I hunt with a 10 year old compound bow
 
Gizmo,

Right on the money with the ethical aspect. I strive for the quick, clean kill. I dont enjoy the killing aspect of the hunt, its necessary but I derive no joy from it. The hunt is where the challenge is, getting close. I watch the animal from the time I shoot it until it leaves my sight or dies in front of me. I have watched many animals die right in front of me, I dont enjoy it, but I watch until the animal is done. Its a sense of accountability if nothing else, I have taken the shot and I alone am responsible for the consequences. My reasoning is like yours, bring enough power, and make certain you have practiced enough to bring it to bear properly.
 
impressed...

Hey guys. I'm really impressed with your ethics here. I have avoided this section until now because I was afraid that I'd see to much glorification of carnage round here. Glad to see a mature, responisble approach and attitude here. I used to hunt as a kid, but have not done so in the last 17 years. Don't have the want/need/stomach for it any more. I would hunt if I had to feed my family. I have put sick pets out of their misery (when I couldn't wait for the vet to do it). I respect hunting as a tool for wildlife management. But I am aware of too many hunters who glorify the killing aspect of it (I just think some people LIVE for killing animals -- can you say Ted Nugent?). For me, the HUNT was everything, the kill was not. I started hunting with a 35mm.

It's very refreshing to see such a mature attitude from you guys. I may have to re-evaluate my own attitude about hunters in general. If they are mostly like you, then the world is a better place...
 
Red Label,
I would not bad mouth Ted Nugent.
You might get run out of here.
There are alot of his fans here.
Happy Camera-ing..............
 
All good posts (so far :))

There's one thing in particular that I find myself in agreement with Giz about -- I have no objection to any technological advances that make hunting easier or more effective. Frequently hunters tend to segregate themselves by the equipment they use. Those who prefer more primitive tools sometimes argue that those who use "new" technology (scoped rifles, range finders, etc...) are "cheating" or not playing by the rules of fair chase. Sometimes those who use technology argue that the use of primitive weapons (bow & arrow, spears) is irresponsible or an attempt to be "macho". There have been some pretty good discussions here on TFL over that very subject. I think these arguments only serve to harm all hunters by aiding the anti-hunters. It (falsely) gives them the argument that some forms of hunting are "bad" and should therefore be stopped and it allows them to attack hunting at both ends of the spectrum. It is simply a matter of an individual's personal tastes; as long as one is proficient with their chosen tools to the degree of meeting that ethical requirement of a quick, clean kill, it matters not what the tool actually is. Ultimately, killing an animal is killing an animal.

Another similar area in which I think we hunters need to be careful in our language is the idea that there is a point at which hunting stops and killing starts. I understand what guys mean when they say "the hunting stops and the work stops when I pull the trigger", but I think it is dangerous to distinguish between hunting and killing. If one can hunt without killing then the door is open to those who seek to abolish "hunting" as we know it today. Even the subject of this thread suggests that there can be "hunting versus killing" (apologies Giz...no flame intended :)). The two are integral. I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong) it was the Spanish philosopher Jose Ortega y Gassett who said "One does not hunt in order to kill, one kills in order to have hunted". I agree with that sentiment. That's not to say that going home empty-handed after a day in the field means that one has not hunted (God knows that happens to me an awful lot), but it does reinforce that hunting and killing cannot be separated.

Just some of the thoughts rattling around in my skull...

Jack
 
Nuge...

Thanks for the tip handgun357. Let me clarify, I did not intend to badmouth Ted. I am just turned-off by a lot of the interviews I see him in. Having said that... I own his albums, I agree with most of his political views, I appreciate his non-politically correct outspokenness, and I play some of the same expensive guitars that he does (Paul Reed Smith). I like his tunes like "Fred Bear" and "The Great White Buffalo". I do think that he is a refreshing and welcome change from most of the other celeberties. I admire the courage of guys like him, Hesston, Sellek, and Gibson to stand-up, speak-out, and be men among mice. So I can (and have done so) sing Ted's praises. But I still think the guy is over-the-top with the adolescent (primal?) urge to kill "stuff". I have heard and read much of Ted's word, and that is my opinion of him. But hey, I'll take him over any freakin PETA nut anyday...
 
Red Label: Have you read some of Ted's hunting stories?? Some of them make me feel like I'm not worthy of hunting...Yes, he glorifies the kill, and the actual death of the animal, but it's a spiritual and emotional thing for him. A couple issues back he had a two page story in one of my hunt-rags, nto sure which one, about his bow ambush of a special buck that he'd been after for a while....He is a good writer, a good hunter, and good for our cause.

I like the killing part. When I, the predator, take (anything that walks flies or swims...) I feel a closeness to nature, and the whole food chain. I'm not gonna say that I don't enjoy the "killing" part, because I do, I'm satisfied with the hunt, and I had fun. I have fun even when I don't get anything, because I get to be outside, and walk in the woods, and smell the smells, but actually getting something makes it twice as good.
 
BedMedicine -- thanks for your point of view. I can appreciate that there are all types in this world. I just don't feel the same way you (and Ted) do. I grew-up hunting (and killing). I had my fill. I love to observe wildlife and it's beauty. I have no doubt that you do also. But when I'm done enjoying it, I like to walk away and leave it in peace -- not take-away that which I cannot give. If I had to feed my family by hunting, or to protect it, then I would kill. That's the circle of life. Take what you need, leave what you do not.

You feel differently. That's fine. Make NO mistake about this, this is NOT an anti-hunting speech. I am NOT anit-hunter. I AM for the responsible, reasonable harvesting and management of wildlife. When I fish, I keep what I will eat, I return what I will not to nature. I like it that way. I feel as though I am an asset to the environment, all-the-while enjoying it as I should. I love the fact that if I were able to communicate with mother nature, I could do so with a clean conscience.

I once saw an interview with Ted where he claimed that he nearly always had at least a handgun on him, even as he drove to and from his property -- in the case that as he was driving down the road he spotted a coon or any other form of wildlife. Hmmm... that's quite sporting of him. I don't feel like blowing away nearly every living thing that it is legal to do so. I stopped feeling like that sometime after I turned 12 or so.

Having said all that... if you feel like doing that. Or anything in between that and being a PETA member -- fine. It takes all kinds in this world. I just happen to have the most respect for those who use moderation and wise jugement in this matter, not the ones who are living by animal instincts.

P.S. If it was possible to sense the tone of one's voice through the written word, you would know that I intend no ill-will toward you, Ted or anyone else. I just disagree with the lust for killing of any living thing...
 
Not knocking Nugent, but I sometimes wonder about remarks apparently made deliberately to shock folks...

I've passed up a lot of shots I could have taken. Sometimes I never knew why; "just did". I've called up coyotes and then just laughed at them. Stalked a buck, one time; got within ten feet and tossed a little rock and hit him on the rump. "Counting coup", I reckon.

I have a "thing" about fair chase and clean kill. But if I go to the trouble of stalking or waiting, and a shootable deer shows up, the shot is made with the expectation of satisfaction at the kill and the full tummy that's gonna be along later. Maybe the satisfaction at the kill is a form of "completion", of "closure"? Dunno.

The whole ethics issue is complex. For instance, I'm happy to take somebody out and help them try to catch a deer. Yet, for me, I'd be uncomfortable at going on a guided hunt. If a knowledgeable fella sez, "Ya oughta try that meadow over yonder.", fine. But to be led to a place, have a trophy pointed out to me and then be told to shoot? I don't think so...

I just leave it at fair chase and clean kill...

:), Art
 
I like the concept that God provides this gift to me, and therefore I must honor the animal and its sacrifice. I honor it in the way I hunt it, and the way I admire and respect it in death.
If I didn't have so many Peter H. Capstick books I might be able to lay my hands on another of my favorite references to this very topic.
still looking.......
 
In his book Meditation on Hunting, Jose Ortega Y Gasset wrote that one "does not hunt to kill but kills in order to have hunted."

The day I take any animal without a twinge of regret I shall cease hunting forever. If I shoot an animal either it was presenting a threat or I intend to eat it. Anything else is pointless slaughter.
 
PJR, if you'll think about it for a minute, you're sorta throwing out an absolute into a gray area. I refer mostly to "threat".

Now, everything dies. I'm 66; dunno how much longer I'll be around, but there's more behind me than in front. No le hace.

I've always cared more about the good of a species than the particular problems of any one animal. (Again, fair chase, clean kill, regardless of other ideas or intentions.)

Twenty years back, in sW Idaho and northern Nevada, there was a fantastic population explosion of jackrabbits. Now, they were threats to farmers in Idaho, but I don't know of any threat in the Nevada sagebrush desert. Regardless, a buddy of mine and I did a lot of rabbit shooting. We didn't eat them, but we did make a lot of coyotes happy. And we didn't even make a minor dent in the population.

Down here in my little patch of desert, I've spent a fair amount of time and money in augmenting water supply for wildlife. We're water-limited, not food-limited, in the ecosystem. The mule deer population, due to drouth and mountain lions, is running about one deer to 300 acres. Right now, there are three lions working within a half-mile of my house.

There is also a pack of feral dogs.

Define threat.

:), Art
 
For me hunting is simple. The hunt ends when the jerky/pot roast/ braised tenderloin medallions come out of the grill/smoker. I don't "owe" the animal a clean kill per say, but it is the tasteful thing to do. There is nothing adolescent to killing. Everyone needs to respect everyone elses reasons for hunting, whether it be taking a successful photo, or taking the tenderloins out of the oven. Condescension towards hunters who don't hunt the way you do is a tool for the anti's.
finis
 
As far as taking what you cannot put back? Every animal, plant, or inanimate things....everything fills a niche (learned about this in science) and that niche will never be left empty. There is only a certain amount of carbon in this world, and that has to go all the way around, so after you take one animal from the circle, more spring up in it's place. If you take one deer, you gut it and take it home, you and your family eat the meat, birds and scvengers eat the guts, and animals and bacteria eat the bones....not only has all of this been givin life, but another deer, or elk, or 30 bunnies, can inhabit that area and eat the browse that mr.deer had been eating. Killing an animal isn't really taking anything, but changing, nothing is ever wasted, ever. Even the Jackrabbits that Art shot for grins. They were eaten by some happy predator, and you can bet 6 more were born in their place. I've done my share of "feedin the yotes." IF it's a game animal, most likely it's illegal, and just not cool, but for groundhogs, jackrabbits, magpies, crows, starlings, or other famers pests, happy hunting.
Art: Don't they have a Lion seaon there?? Isn't this it?? Get on your horse and go shoot them darned lions cowboy!!!! Jeeeze, you wouldn't have to tell me twice:D
 
Thanks, Jack Straw, for your words of caution regarding our language. It think most of American society has forgotten that everything does have to die, whether it's consumed by someone (thing) or not.

I happen to enjoy the hunt and the kill. I can remember my great-grandfather telling stories about feeding his family during the Great Depression by spending countless hours in the field shooting (*killing*) birds and other small game - that's what they did to survive. I'm kinda glad he did (that's why I'm even around to stick my nose in on this thread).

I know I don't have to kill what I eat to survive, but someone has to kill what I eat, so it may as well be me. I'll have a lot more fun, stay healthier both from the hunt and the eating, and teach my children how to provide for themselves and their future families if (when) the need arises. I also know that my grandfather was a galley hand in the Navy because that's where Uncle Sam stuck him, but when his best friend was wounded by air attack on their ship he pulled his friend to safety and manned his friend's gun until the Zeros were gone. Don't know if he got one - don't care - what I do know is that he knew how to kill to provide and to protect when the need arose.

You guys should read about some of the real old-timers like Ben Lily and his sort who killed for the need to protect and to feed others. They were the rough, tuff sort that would go for days in search of a particular bear or mtn lion that was causing grief to ranchers and families. I figure if there were more of their sort around, hunting would never be called into question as "objectionable" in today's society.


ERRainman
 
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