Hunting Pups and Copperheads Just Don't Mix

Cap-
The oral amoxicillin is the home therapy.

Looks like the vet may have been a moron. The dex and cortef were given for inflamation and shock. Antibiotics to control infection from necrosis or opportunitstic bugs.

Other than that, I suspect he left to pup to his own defenses against tissue damage from the venom. Currently all swelling and tenderness is gone and he's back to his usual terrorizing.

Rich
 
Glad he's doing OK. I suspect that if the vet had used the same therapy on another venomous species bite, the outcome would have been tragic. I got to thinking earlier today (dangerous! :D ) and remembered back to about a decade ago. I was hunting snakes north of Miami in the drier, palmetto thickets, and the place was crawling with pigmy rattlers. They're tiny, and the rattle's buzz sounds like a cricket. In spite of their size, the venom they produce packs a wallop. Just another one of Florida's goodies you need to watch out for.
 
Capt-
Started checking on some of the antivenins yesterday. Crofab, for 4 rattler species, for example:
If you can get it, it's $1800 for a two vial dose (minimum required for 1 bite); needs to be refrigerated in crystal form; and expires in about 2 years.

Multiply that times six or eight potential hot snakes in any given area and you've built up quite an "antivenin budget".
Rich
 
I don't know how I missed this thread.

Rich, I'm so glad Doggy-Dog is okay-- that neck swelling is terrifying. Airway is the first danger.

You know, it's funny-- I don't really worry much about copperheads because I've known so many who have gotten bitten on the hands and ankles and not only survived, but didn't even seek treatment. But there's a huge difference between a full-grown man taking a dose of copperhead to a limb and a 20 lb pup taking a double shot to the snout! Miko's lucky to have received care so quick. I'm glad you discovered it so quickly.
 
Thanks for posting this, Rich. I run a Brittany during Montana's four-month-long upland bird season and I always have a sense of dread during the month of September. Rattlers are still very much about. I have totally revised my summer training scheme to take us away from the plains and river breaks where snakes live to the mountains and -gasp- urban parks where serpents are unlikely. Still, some of the best money spent was on a snake break clinic when pup was a year old. Our local sporting dog/NASTRA club brings in a handler with snakes and sets the dog up for some serious electro-aversion therapy. I know of at least two times in the field when such training saved Dixie's life.

Anyhow, I'm glad to hear your own dog is on the road to wellness. That was a harrowing story and a heartbreaking image of you dog's face and throat. The information you posted here may well save some good dogs from an early death. Thank you.
 
Glad your dog's all right, Rich...

Did I mention that there are no venomous snakes where I live? Altitude has it's perks! ;)
 
Well, Shoot!

I missed the thread, too, and it was started a couple of days before I went out of town for most of a week.

I'm sure glad the MikDawg is doing well. Not only an enthusiastic hunter, but a fine little companion as well. (With some SHARP little teeth!)

Best,
Johnny
 
Glad to hear your dog is alright.

October is Spring in Australia and in the Snowy Mountains it is still quite cold, too cold to be thinking of snakes, but apparently it was warm enough for the Snakes to come out and they were very slovenly.

One of my Shetland Sheepdogs decided to investigate a funny little stick- which reared.

I yelled at him and he backed off and sat down for further instructions.

Snake had got stripes on it that identified him as a Tiger Snake- a very aggressive breed, and a few days later when things were warmer the dog would have been history.
 
Lawyer Daggitt-
Interesting that Down Under is where the largest number of dogs are lost to snakes....not surprising that you guys seem to be doing the most work on practical remedy.

In particular, I came across some interesting reading there that swears by the use of 10-15 grams of liquid Vitamin C, intramuscular, as an effective treatment. Given that Crofab Antivenin is just not practical in the field, and Vitamin C has no toxicity levels (excess excreted in the urine), I intend to include this in Miko's survival kit.

Any input from down your way would be greatly appreciated.
Rich
 
Rich,
Huge doses of vitamin C are used to treat some spider bites, and stings like those nasty "asp" catapillars etc IIRC.
 
Bites

Interesting thread. My sons dog (90 lb mutt) was bit in the face when we lived in OK years ago. The vet just gave her an anti-biotic and sent us home. She survived okay but was lethargic for a while.

A gal in our party at Tenkiller Reservoir went in to use the facilities and was bit in the hind end by a copperhead. Don't know what she was treated with at the hospital, but bites were fairly common. I was always extra carefull around the woodpile. Had a rattler in the furnace closet there once. Apparently chased a mouse through the A/C drainage pipe to outside.

One of the kids got nailed by a scorpion when putting his jeans on after swimming at Fort Gibson Reservoir.

I guess we are all more likely to have run-ins with things that crawl and bite than warm blooded animals. My only nose to nose problem with a warm blood was a rabid coon 5-6 years ago, though we are getting a lot of dog packs and coyote the last few years. Seems I always think of them when woods walking and seldom consider joe no shoulders,
 
bt-
It's been my experience that most Rattler strikes in the field actually miss. I used to think that this was just poor eyesight. I now think differently. Turns out that a high percentage of bites are "dry"- no venom; and many researchers now believe that snakes can and do calibrate the amount of venom injected.

The theory is that venom is a highly expensive commodity for them and they tend not to want to expend it on critters too large to eat, unless they are truly threatened. It would explain much about "dry" bites and strike misses.

Still, when I see a hot snake in the field, it dies. I DO NOT like snakes.
Rich
 
I tend to be really cautious about new or holistic remedies. Some work, some don't. I don't know about Vit. C, but my feeling from what I've read so far is that it probably wouldn't hurt, but I wouldn't rely on it solely, either. Every couple of years, someone comes up with a new treatment for snakebite. Usually, they make an erroneous connection between a lack of or minor symptoms from a dry bite with whatever home remedy they were trying at the time. I recommend caution on the Vit. C pending the results of clinical trials.
 
Lawyer Daggit

Down Under has always been an enigma to me when it comes to venomous animals. It seems that every critter there with venom, from box jellies to blue ringed octopus, to Sydney Funnelwebs, to an unbelievable assortment of snakes, is hyper-venomous. Why, I wonder, did Australia's critters evolve with a need for such incredibly potent venoms?
 
Capt-
Agreed that there is no need to be reinventing the wheel here.
I'm just concerned about seeing a 70 lb dog hit when I'm 4 miles from a truck and 60 miles from a real vet. At that point, I'll take any edge I can get, so long as there's is no risk of serious side effect. With Vit C I know there isn't.
Rich
 
Down Under has always been an enigma to me when it comes to venomous animals. It seems that every critter there with venom, from box jellies to blue ringed octopus, to Sydney Funnelwebs, to an unbelievable assortment of snakes, is hyper-venomous. Why, I wonder, did Australia's critters evolve with a need for such incredibly potent venoms?
Click to expand...

Best guess? Australia was home to some of the last megafauna, so potent venom was a plus for making kills or preventing attacks. Alternatively, there may have been some environmental pressure that made elimination of the recipient vital.
 
Capt, there's growing suspicion that blue-ringed octopi, along with pufferfish and maybe even conefish, are not poisonous by themselves, that instead they're infected with some bacteria (like pseudomonas) that's gotten a gene to produce tetrodotoxin.

Potassium permanganate for treatment of poisoning? I've never heard that one... I suppose it's intended to destroy the venom (through oxidation)? Both that and the stun gun idea are simple in theory. Why don't they work?

Best guess? Australia was home to some of the last megafauna, so potent venom was a plus for making kills or preventing attacks.
Click to expand...
There's no defensive advantage: venoms of most sorts don't work fast enough to keep the offending creature from stomping the snake to death.
There's no food-source advantage: megafauna are too big for the snakes to eat, and way too big for the funnel-web or those evil little box jellyfish. Non-poisonous snakes have no trouble finding food, so what selective advantage do Taipans have?

Australia may have poisonous marine life because it has some really cool reefs that offer much more aquatic variety than most costal areas. There are sea snakes, blue-ringed octopi, and box jellyfish in Hawaii, too.

Africa has a variety of unpleasant land animals, too. Australia doesn't have a monopoly there. Since it seems elapids evolved only in the Old World, that alone tilts the field in favor of Africa and southern Asia having lots of poisonous snakes. Europe doesn't have quite so many because it's mostly outside the tropics.

And what the Americas lack in poisonous snakes (and diamondbacks are no joke, not to mention Bushmasters if you're unlucky enough to run into one in SouthAm)... we make up for in hungry sharks, particularly in Florida! :eek: Rich, are you teaching Miko to stay away from salt water? :)
 
Tyme

Both that and the stun gun idea are simple in theory. Why don't they work?
Click to expand...
Potassium permanganate worked OK. Problem was, it destroyed as much or more tissue than the venom did. As to the stun gun, or ignition coil from a vehicle, the thinking is that it breaks the bonds within molecules that make up the venom. Doesn't work. Venoms are made up of complex proteins and enzymes, and the atoms that make up the molecules are held together via double covalent bonds. VERY hard to break. The voltage sufficient to do that would also break up proteins normally found in tissue as well. I never cease to be amazed at the number of myths and legends surrounding snakes. Volumes of books have been written on just that subject. It's not all bad, though; some are good for a really good laugh :D .
 
+1 On Capt Charlie's post - you can't just use gross toxic effects to go after something in your system. The problem is just as he described - if it's not going to affect the venom, then it's no good, and if it will, then it will also affect all the useful components that make up your body. Try drinking a few gallons of bleach to kill your next bacterial infection. It'll work, but it'll take you out as well.

For topical use (on the skin), one can get away with more gross toxicity, because the amount entering the bloodstream is still small (hence the use of iodine to kill bacteria on a surface wound). However, for internal use, whether it's administered orally, inhaled or injected, you need a sophisticated, selective agent. For example, you don't drink a bottle of iodine to treat bronchitis. That's what medicines are all about - a combination of potency and selectivity.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top