hunting dogs

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Originally posted by Husqvarna: no it doesn't make sense:rolleyes:

if a we as hunters injure and animal we have an obligation to dispatch it as fast as possible.

what if the deer isn't there when you get back from putting the dog in the truck?

an animal with its jaw shot of can run and live for days but not have any chance of survival in the long run
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The law is written so there is no confusion as to what the definition is of having the dog aid in the hunt. While dogs can aid in the hunting of other animals, in Wisconsin they can not be used for hunting deer....only blood trailing wounded/dead deer. If you shoot a deer when using a dog you are breaking the law, whether the deer was previously wounded or not, plain and simple. The law is written so folks can't bend or stretch the boundaries of the law. While it may not make sense to some folk's ethics, it's better than not being able to use a dog at all. Same goes for shooting after hunting hours. If you shoot and wound a deer close to closing time, and it isn't till after legal hunting hours you have the opportunity to dispatch the animal, you're SOL. You either have to wait till morning to shoot or cut its throat to stay legal. Again, ethically it doesn't make sense, but from a law enforcement standpoint it makes hunting during legal hours easier to enforce. If folks wouldn't try and shoot a deer in the head, they wouldn't have blown it's jaw off. It's not the law's fault that animal is suffering, but their stupidity.
 
Husqvarana makes some interesting observations. Dogging deer is a legitimate and traditional method in the American South....in most areas anyway. There are those that damn the practice, but in truth most of what they castigate they truly do not understand. Truly, the most difficult method of dropping a trophy buck is by the use of dogs, easy doesn't even enter the equation regardless of what you non dog hunters believe. A wily old buck will twist, run back on his tracks, stop dead and let the dogs run around him and then go like hell in the opposite direction. I have personally seen a nicely racked buck enter a relatively small patch of timber that my group had totally surrounded and the only deer that came out were does and yearlings....all the while that pack of dogs never slowed or paused the chase for an instant. That buck just found a bunch of other deer and let the dogs run them while he sneaked out thru a long and impenetrable cypress strand (pond).

As to the 'why' of the prohibition in a lot of areas I guess you'd have back up to the history of hunting in the U.S., and the massive abuse of wildlife of every type in the 1800's.....market hunting was rampant, several species were actually wiped out or decimated to the point that even to this time no real recovery has occurred. Bison alone went from the multi millions to probably only a few thousand, the passenger pigeon was extirpated and so on and on.

From what I've read the State of New York outlawed the use of dogs in the early 1890's, and was apparently followed by many other jurisdictions thereafter.....I know the practice survived in West Virginia till the 1920's....I believe that Texas stopped it in the 1970's where it was practiced in its eastern counties.

Likely those early closures made a bit of sense from the perspective of rebuilding the resource as deer particularily had been market hunted to neigh extinction in the early 20th century.........but not today, and there is most certainly nothing either unsporting or biologically harmful in utilizing dogs for ethical and properly managed hunting. Think about it, for millennia deer survival depended on being able to survive canid predation. I recall reading of one experiment conducted by a southern game agency that concluded that dogs cannot catch a healthy deer.....that experiment was held from coastal plain environs to the Appalachian plateau.

So why is it still verboten? My guess is that it has simply become the norm to not use that aid in those areas where it's been outlawed for the better part of a century or more.....the culture of such a practice has simply died and is unlikely to be permitted since there is simply no outcry for it, and there exists the widespread and mistaken belief that its too destructive a method.

Don't get me wrong........there are places that certain methods are problematic.......insofar as using dogs on far ranging animals like deer very large tracs of land are required....or one is by necessity relegated to small and slow running hounds......too, in heavily settled areas it is utterly impossible to avoid the trespass issue and the hassle that follows and it ought to be avoided in that instance. That prohibition logic tho, utterly fails when one looks at the massively large chunks of land that comprise our National Forests tho.......as an example I cite the Geo. Washington and Mongahela lands in W.Va and Va..........I cannot understand the logic of permitting bear dogs on those lands and not for deer!

Too, as a general rule, those that utilize dogs DON'T leave wounded animals to die a slow and agonizing death......at the very least the use of tracking dogs for recovery purposes ought to be legal everywhere.

Personally I have hunted with dogs since my very early youth...I am now in my mid-70's.....I've also hunted without them.....by law.....on my annual W.Va expedition........I see far, far more deer killed there than at home here in Florida but truly there is something lacking when one cannot liven up the afternoon by routing out that thick briar patch with a little hound melody..............besides, those folks have so many deer that I'm told automotive insurers have pushed for longer seasons and more population reduction.
 
If folks wouldn't try and shoot a deer in the head, they wouldn't have blown it's jaw off. It's not the law's fault that animal is suffering, but their stupidity.
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I agree whole heartidly, just a strange law from my perspective

but as dogrunner later wrote, laws were put into place to save animals, but don't you already have tags for pretty much any animal?

do you have to buy tags to hunt deer even on your own land?

is there a set number of tags?
 
Ah Husqvarna, you can't fix stupid! Some folks do dumb things and some just make mistakes........seems to me that's just the nature of man and borderline shots probably occur everywhere. For sure there is nothing wrong with a solid head shot IF you are capable of it.......to my mind it's probably very appropriate when one is using a firearm of marginal effectivness. I once saw a buck hit five times, three on one side and two on the other that ran well over a quarter mile and was only recovered by virtue of having a good dog. Those shots were with what I consider a poor choice, a pair of .223 autoloaders.......in defense of the shooters both were late teens, the shot opportunity was very small.....consisting of an approximate 50 foot wide trail and the buck was really going fast with a pack of walkers on him!

But it amazes me that those northern states that prohibit dogs allow archery as a method.........I'd bet that at least 20 plus percent of the stuck deer are never recovered, regardless of the protestations to the contrary....I have personally found carcasses..with the arrow still in the critter...on public and private lands I have access to.

Far as tagging goes, well it depends on the state in which one hunts.....in Florida one does not have to tag a kill on private land. One is supposed to check one in at various locations on public lands tho in really open areas I know it's rarely done.

Current state limits here are two bucks per day over an approximate 5 month season.....there is provision for limited antlerless harvest and special seasons for primitive weaponry wherein the use of dogs is generally not allowed.....but each state sets its own rules and what is legal on one side of a river will get you jailed on the other!!

Y'know, I could not agree with you more strongly about having an ethical obligation to dispatch that animal as quickly and humanely as possible and laws such as the fella from Wisconsin details astound me.....what is one supposed to do strangle the thing or play tarzan and stab it to death, I'll betcha that THAT provision is not adhered to very strongly....most certainly I would just take my chances and ignore it...

By the way, just to illustrate how the laws differ I believe that Wisconsin has no magazine capacity limits on semi auto rifles for hunting but here in Florida five is all that's permitted........6 in that magazine will land you a hefty fine and might even result in you losing your gun!.......Go figure!!


Oh yeah, no license required for a resident landowner here or in W.Va. Other jurisdictions will vary.
 
Originally posted by dogrunner:

But it amazes me that those northern states that prohibit dogs allow archery as a method.........I'd bet that at least 20 plus percent of the stuck deer are never recovered, regardless of the protestations to the contrary....I have personally found carcasses..with the arrow still in the critter...on public and private lands I have access to.
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I could say the same with deer shot with a gun, probably even more so when a deer being chased by dogs is shot with buckshot. While most of us strive to kill our quarry as quickly and as painless as possible, it don't always happen(altho I know most on internet forums have never wounded a deer, much less made a less than perfect shot or missed one). Most archers I know are better hunters with more woodsmanship than the gun only hunters I know. But since archery season is before the gun season here, gun hunters find dead deer with arrows and figure only archers are the ones that make bad shots. Those same folks need to go out in the woods after the gun season and see what the 'yotes are eatin' then.


Originally posted by dogrunner:

Y'know, I could not agree with you more strongly about having an ethical obligation to dispatch that animal as quickly and humanely as possible and laws such as the fella from Wisconsin details astound me.....what is one supposed to do strangle the thing or play tarzan and stab it to death, I'll betcha that THAT provision is not adhered to very strongly....most certainly I would just take my chances and ignore it...

By the way, just to illustrate how the laws differ I believe that Wisconsin has no magazine capacity limits on semi auto rifles for hunting but here in Florida five is all that's permitted........6 in that magazine will land you a hefty fine and might even result in you losing your gun!.......Go figure!
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Ethics is one of those things that no body can agree on, even state wildlife agencies. In one state hunting deer with dogs is part of the culture. In others it is considered unethical and cheating. Same goes for the shooting of deer over bait. Some folks claim they would never get a chance to shoot a deer without using bait, while someone in another state will claim that baiting is the bane of deer hunting. No real rhyme or reason. There is Rhyme and/or reason for following game laws tho. Generally hefty fines, loss of firearms and maybe your vehicle and loss of hunting privileges. While I do everything I can to make a clean kill and every effort to retrieve wounded game, I feel it more important to stay within the limits of the law than to risk the other options. Others are free to do otherwise, but bragging about it online does nothing to embrace hunting to others. Dogrunner, since you freely admit you would break Wisconsin laws and shoot a deer with the aid of a dog or after hours, does this mean you also break Florida laws and use a mag with a capacity of more than 5?
 
Damn, Buck, sorta sounds like you want to start an argument....I don't, and any commentary I've made relative to the ethical perspective I have is from the heart.....but that said, yeah, I'd break your law and take my chances if faced with the choice of letting an animal remain in agony as opposed to abiding by such a regulation as you describe.........frankly, I'd take my chances in a jury trial under those circumstances as well.

Far as the use of buckshot goes, you and I agree.....good wounder that leaves no blood trail. Once dropped a really heavy racked buck....twice....with 00.....even the best dog we had could do no good as the area was so heavy with deer sign. I believe that nearly all that hunt have had the experience of a bad shot....I once spent nearly a full day trying to drop a caribou on which I'd broken the front leg and finally had to give it up well after dark with a heavy storm brewing. Range estimation can be a real problem in the barren grounds and I did the best I could by myself.

Break Florida law.....not hardly, spent well over three decades enforcing it, but still, as I said given no choice I'd do the decent thing....regardless of that law....like the man said, your mileage might vary, mine doesn't.

Besides, if I really just wanted to upset the GFC types I'd stick that 16 of mine in the truck and just dump a couple of mags.......draws 'em like flie!
 
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Originally posted bydogrunner: Damn, Buck, sorta sounds like you want to start an argument....I don't, and any commentary I've made relative to the ethical perspective I have is from the heart.....but that said, yeah, I'd break your law and take my chances if faced with the choice of letting an animal remain in agony as opposed to abiding by such a regulation as you describe.........frankly, I'd take my chances in a jury trial under those circumstances as well.
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No desire to be argumentative. Just I have a real big problem with folks that publicly condone breaking wildlife regulations. You are free to feel otherwise. I help teach hunter safety to young kids and adults. One night of each class session is spent with the local game Warden reviewing common game laws and taking questions. The two items I mentioned are always subject to debate. It comes down to enforcement. If you have laws against the use of dogs to aid in the hunting of deer and laws against shooting after legal hours, you cannot make exceptions. Same goes for bag limits and season dates. The minute you start to make exceptions and allow grey areas, poachers will try and use it as an excuse or to their advantage. Another law that is often debated is putting down an injured animal that has been hit by a car or found hurt. While the emotional thing is to put them down as quickly as possible, without permission from a warden or other LEO, it is no different than shooting that animal without a license or out of season. Not a big deal today with cell phones being so popular, years ago, not so much.

BTW.....the fine for shooting a deer illegally here in Wisconsin either by the use of dogs or after hours is $1800, plus the loss of the weapon and loss of hunting and fishing privileges. If that illegal deer is placed in your car or truck, odds are you will lose that too. Sorry, I'm a long time hunter and sportsman, still, I'm gonna take the dog back to the truck, wait till morning or use my knife.
 
Buck, would not the use of ANY weapon engender the same situation relative to taking game by the use of that dog?

Y'know, that comment on 'the law is the law' kinda bothers me tho. It's a rationale that's been used in some circumstances are truly questionable. There IS such a thing as the law as written v/ the spirit of that law. I never viewed my position as a LEO as an unthinking minion of the state....I tried to exercise descretion even if the action I took was not quite in line with 'as written'......I could not tell you the number of times that I called for a cab with two drivers for a borderline DUI...........technically could've made a charge........but the call was so close I chose to exercise the prerogative I believe was proper....yeah, some folks disagree but when one becomes an automation in that kinda job then the risk of really bad consequences rears it's head........you know, I was 'only following orders'.

Do as you would, I sure will!
 
Sorry, I'm a long time hunter and sportsman, still, I'm gonna take the dog back to the truck, wait till morning or use my knife.
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Is it legal to kill deer in Wisconsin with knife at night while using dogs?
 
Why is it folks are tryin' to kill the messenger? I'm not the one that wrote the rules, nor am I the one enforcing the rules, nor did I say I always agree with the rules, I was only responding to a question about tracking deer with dogs and the law as how it has been explained to me and interpreted by local wardens. I was also only saying that I always tried to abide by those laws as I understood them. That said.......


Originally posted by 2damnold4this:

Is it legal to kill deer in Wisconsin with knife at night while using dogs?
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Better yet......is it legal to kill deer in Wisconsin with a knife during daylight without dogs?

Again, as been explained to me. It comes down to enforcement. Cutting an animals throat is an accepted way of making them bleed out and is a common way of removing the windpipe in the field during field dressing. Running up and slitting a healthy wild deer's throat is not a common practice among violators. Shooting at night with the aid of a light(after hours blood trailing generally means you need a light) or using a dog to aid in the hunt is a common practice by violators. Hard for a warden to say you ran the deer down in the dark and killed them with your knife, but he would question when he heard gun shots after dark or when a dog was along as to whether it was a legal or illegal kill. This is just common sense guys. If the warden was along at night he would probably put the deer down or tell you to, but by yourself in the woods, they would have to go by the book. It also comes down to if you cannot get close enough to the animal to bleed it out, because they are
not wounded severely enough, one could say the original wound was not mortal and only superficial. What if you miss with the first coup de gras and need a second shot. Warden hears two shots in the dark and finds two holes in the animal. Makes it easier in the long run just to not allow you to shoot. Will a few animals suffer needlessly? Sure, but not near as many as would be poached if shooting after hours and with the aid of dogs was not enforced. Dogrunner.....I'm sure there are many cases of where the wardens do use discretion in cases like this, but that does not mean the law is not generally enforced. Thus.... I suggest folks follow the law. One of those catch 22s. Just like any decision one makes as to break the law or not. While I do not enjoy watching any animal suffer, I am not foolish enough to risk $1800, my gun, my vehicle and my hunting and fishing rights on an animal I cannot get close enough to without having to shoot it again. Others are free to do as they seem fit. BUT...IMHO, it still is not proper to suggest publicly that other folks break the law. It is not the impression I want to portray to others, as a hunter.
 
I took a look at the Wisconsin deer regulations and I didn't see anything about dispatching wounded animals with a knife. I also didn't see anything about a knife being a legal hunting weapon. While it may be an accepted way of making a wounded animal bleed out, I'm not sure it's any more legal than shooting another arrow or bullet at night.


Some states have explicit regulations on dispatching wounded game but others do not. I suspect that most game wardens are able to tell the difference between a deer being dispatched and a deer being illegally hunted at night and would cut a person dealing with a wounded critter some slack. If the hunter had a cell phone, it would probably be a good idea to call and get permission to dispatch a wounded deer if they had to shoot it at night. I doubt that many wardens would have a zero tolerance policy but some might.
 
Originally posted by 2damnold4this;

I took a look at the Wisconsin deer regulations and I didn't see anything about dispatching wounded animals with a knife. I also didn't see anything about a knife being a legal hunting weapon. While it may be an accepted way of making a wounded animal bleed out, I'm not sure it's any more legal than shooting another arrow or bullet at night.


Some states have explicit regulations on dispatching wounded game but others do not. I suspect that most game wardens are able to tell the difference between a deer being dispatched and a deer being illegally hunted at night and would cut a person dealing with a wounded critter some slack. If the hunter had a cell phone, it would probably be a good idea to call and get permission to dispatch a wounded deer if they had to shoot it at night. I doubt that many wardens would have a zero tolerance policy but some might.
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I have been told, by several wardens, that dispatching an animal shot and wounded legally, that you have a valid tag for, with a knife, is legal. If you do not want to believe me, so be it. I ain't living half a country away making guesses at another state's regulations. You want to assume that a warden will give you a break when you ignore regulations.....by all means go for it. Again as I said before if you have permission from a warden to shoot at night you are fine, odds are that permission will not be given unless he is there. As for trailing at night, I used to hunt public land primarily with my bow. If I shot a deer that needed to lay or had to be trailed after hours, I always went home(before cell phones) and called the local warden so he would know what was going on if folks called in about lights in the woods at night or a truck parked late on a fire lane. They always said the same thing, "fine, just make sure you don't take your bow with you". There were times when I got back to the truck, the warden was there waiting.
 
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