Hunting Deer with a 400 gr Speer 45-70 government load
- Thread starter Stats Shooter
- Start date
I'm stuck with Ohio rifle deer laws on cals that don't make much sense. The use
of the restricted cals is suppose to be limiting distance of bullet flight for safety
purposes. I have had a 95 Marlin for years. Have it focused with 300JHP Horns
at near Max IMR-3031 and scoped it. More than enough for deer, Twas overkill.
Now have dropped back to #3 Ruger in 375win, loaded with Speer 235gr semi
spitzers, meant for 375H&H. over hot IMR-3031 load. This rig is giving me under
1" at 100yds off the bench. If it doesn't, it's my fault. Still feel overkill, but most
deer are shot under 100yds in this areas thick cover. This rig will give me the
Opportunity for those deer that walk out into the open at 200+ yds that weren't
a possible shot before. I've you have ever been stuck having to use slugs you
know what I mean, it never fails you see one every day you can't touch.
of the restricted cals is suppose to be limiting distance of bullet flight for safety
purposes. I have had a 95 Marlin for years. Have it focused with 300JHP Horns
at near Max IMR-3031 and scoped it. More than enough for deer, Twas overkill.
Now have dropped back to #3 Ruger in 375win, loaded with Speer 235gr semi
spitzers, meant for 375H&H. over hot IMR-3031 load. This rig is giving me under
1" at 100yds off the bench. If it doesn't, it's my fault. Still feel overkill, but most
deer are shot under 100yds in this areas thick cover. This rig will give me the
Opportunity for those deer that walk out into the open at 200+ yds that weren't
a possible shot before. I've you have ever been stuck having to use slugs you
know what I mean, it never fails you see one every day you can't touch.
Stats Shooter
New member
Yea
To those folks with rifle hunting restricted states....I have no experience in that arena. I live in Mississippi but I'm originally from Nebraska. I have hunted Colorado elk, Utah elk, sheep in new Mexico, antelope back home in Western Nebraska along with mule deer. Here in Mississippi I hunt hogs and white tail deer.
All of those states have minimum restrictions for certain game, but no high power restrictions.
I have only taken 3 shots at medium/large game that I KNOW I could not have made without a scope and some high velocity. A Hog at 750 yards with a .338 lapua (just because), an antelope at 425 and an elk at 350 yards. The hog was pest control for a friend off a tail gate with bipod and rear bag. The other two were prone with a pack for a rest.
But other than that (and some coyotes) everything else has been 150 Yards or less.
My dad actually hunts mainly with a browning lever action .243 with open sights for non-elk.
We all have hangups or pet peeves, like 444 and juicing up the 45-70 trying to make it into something it ain't....more likely the peeve is the people who talk about moreso than the action.
I have several myself, like people who empty thier magazine shooting at an animal rather than a single well placed shot. Or people who show up at the range before deer season with a McMillan tac .338 lapua, US optics scope, shoot a 5" group and say that they are ready for long range deer hunting.
But I digress.
I will let you know how it goes. Might be a while. Out deer season goes until Feb 1. I really hope I see a big pig, because they are tough enough that it will absorb a lot of the energy
To those folks with rifle hunting restricted states....I have no experience in that arena. I live in Mississippi but I'm originally from Nebraska. I have hunted Colorado elk, Utah elk, sheep in new Mexico, antelope back home in Western Nebraska along with mule deer. Here in Mississippi I hunt hogs and white tail deer.
All of those states have minimum restrictions for certain game, but no high power restrictions.
I have only taken 3 shots at medium/large game that I KNOW I could not have made without a scope and some high velocity. A Hog at 750 yards with a .338 lapua (just because), an antelope at 425 and an elk at 350 yards. The hog was pest control for a friend off a tail gate with bipod and rear bag. The other two were prone with a pack for a rest.
But other than that (and some coyotes) everything else has been 150 Yards or less.
My dad actually hunts mainly with a browning lever action .243 with open sights for non-elk.
We all have hangups or pet peeves, like 444 and juicing up the 45-70 trying to make it into something it ain't....more likely the peeve is the people who talk about moreso than the action.
I have several myself, like people who empty thier magazine shooting at an animal rather than a single well placed shot. Or people who show up at the range before deer season with a McMillan tac .338 lapua, US optics scope, shoot a 5" group and say that they are ready for long range deer hunting.
But I digress.
I will let you know how it goes. Might be a while. Out deer season goes until Feb 1. I really hope I see a big pig, because they are tough enough that it will absorb a lot of the energy
Yeah.........it's way overkill. So what?
I have killed deer and even rabbits for fun with 375H&H, 458, Winchester 50-140 sharps, 62 caliber flintlock and 460 G&A. They work.
45-70 with a grizzly load. Ok....should work fine.
If you shoot the gun and that load well, go for it. Why not!
I would not object to that any more than I object to someone killing deer with good hunting bullets from a 223. It's their right to enjoy what they enjoy, and yours too.
The only reason I ever tell someone to consider some other weapon is when the one they are using is defective or they don't have the skills to use it effectively.
If someone has some illogical objection to it---- let them object.
It's like those that object to a gun being black, having a pistol grip or being semi-auto. They are not worth of your time or consideration.
I have killed deer and even rabbits for fun with 375H&H, 458, Winchester 50-140 sharps, 62 caliber flintlock and 460 G&A. They work.
45-70 with a grizzly load. Ok....should work fine.
If you shoot the gun and that load well, go for it. Why not!
I would not object to that any more than I object to someone killing deer with good hunting bullets from a 223. It's their right to enjoy what they enjoy, and yours too.
The only reason I ever tell someone to consider some other weapon is when the one they are using is defective or they don't have the skills to use it effectively.
If someone has some illogical objection to it---- let them object.
It's like those that object to a gun being black, having a pistol grip or being semi-auto. They are not worth of your time or consideration.
If you're taking deer with the Speer 400gr FP in the 1800fps range, and you haven't had one (or more) come apart, consider yourself lucky.
Its not a constant at that speed, but it can happen. Deer can still be DRT, and usually is, but that bullet isn't built for that speed. And I can tell you from personal experience that if you jack the speed up to 2100fps, (.458 Win) they act like very LARGE varmint bullets!
That bullet is built to give expansion at the low end of .45-70 speeds (black powder speed ~1200fps), and they will work well driven a bit faster, but from what I've seen, 1800fps is the edge of where they start coming apart.
There are lots of other bullets that are built to take that kind of velocity (the Hornady 350gr RN is an excellent one), just not that Speer 400 FP.
Hardcast 400gr bullets at 1800 perform very well, don't shed bits of jacket into the meat, and will eventually stop a couple feet deep in the first tree thick enough that they run into after going through the deer.
The Speer 400gr is a great bullet, excellent for a lot of things, but you CAN drive them too fast in modern guns with heavy loads.
Its not a constant at that speed, but it can happen. Deer can still be DRT, and usually is, but that bullet isn't built for that speed. And I can tell you from personal experience that if you jack the speed up to 2100fps, (.458 Win) they act like very LARGE varmint bullets!
That bullet is built to give expansion at the low end of .45-70 speeds (black powder speed ~1200fps), and they will work well driven a bit faster, but from what I've seen, 1800fps is the edge of where they start coming apart.
There are lots of other bullets that are built to take that kind of velocity (the Hornady 350gr RN is an excellent one), just not that Speer 400 FP.
Hardcast 400gr bullets at 1800 perform very well, don't shed bits of jacket into the meat, and will eventually stop a couple feet deep in the first tree thick enough that they run into after going through the deer.
The Speer 400gr is a great bullet, excellent for a lot of things, but you CAN drive them too fast in modern guns with heavy loads.
Stats Shooter
New member
Way to be a wet blanket 44AMP
Actually, I know I'm on the ragged edge with it. I also have 200 405 gr weld cores that are DESIGNED to be pushed between 1700fps and 2300 fps according to weld core. The jacket is very thick.
Thanks for the heads up. I know some bullets can be pushed too hard if they are not designed to handle it.
Overkill at its finest ...
It's always a rookie mistake to go afield under-gunned.
Nope, a thinking hunter always matches his cartridge selection to the species of critter being taken.
Don't be that rookie ... In this case, you should be hitting the deer fields or forests with the venerable 460 Weatherby Mag.
It's always a rookie mistake to go afield under-gunned. Nope, a thinking hunter always matches his cartridge selection to the species of critter being taken.
Don't be that rookie ... In this case, you should be hitting the deer fields or forests with the venerable 460 Weatherby Mag.
I shot a Creedmoor match (BPCR) put on buy a guy who had several records in BPCR shooting and BP Silhouette.
Thinking it was like a cast bullets in a pistol/revolver where I need hard cast and high velocities.
Shooting 800-900 & 1000 yards my bullets were tumbling. I was using the Browning's Model 1895 45-70.
Kenny told me to try soft lead and keep the velocities to normal Army 45-70 loads so I backed off to about 1200 fps (535 gr slug). My accuracy improved quite a bit and the recoil was much less which also helped my shooting.
Another benefit is I dont have to have separate loads to worry about getting mixed up and fired in my '73 Springfield Trapdoor.
I figured a million buffalo where taken with the Army's loading so it should be fine for deer size animals.
In my 50 Cal. inline muzzle loader I found that soft cast mini balls (sized to .501) shoot better then the jacketed sabot rounds.
Another reason to like the mild Army loading is that it makes it easier to get youngsters involved in BPRC Shootings.
Though she shoots up my ammo faster then I can load it.
YMMV, folks and guns like different loading. The main thing is we're out there enjoying shooting sports.
Thinking it was like a cast bullets in a pistol/revolver where I need hard cast and high velocities.
Shooting 800-900 & 1000 yards my bullets were tumbling. I was using the Browning's Model 1895 45-70.
Kenny told me to try soft lead and keep the velocities to normal Army 45-70 loads so I backed off to about 1200 fps (535 gr slug). My accuracy improved quite a bit and the recoil was much less which also helped my shooting.
Another benefit is I dont have to have separate loads to worry about getting mixed up and fired in my '73 Springfield Trapdoor.
I figured a million buffalo where taken with the Army's loading so it should be fine for deer size animals.
In my 50 Cal. inline muzzle loader I found that soft cast mini balls (sized to .501) shoot better then the jacketed sabot rounds.
Another reason to like the mild Army loading is that it makes it easier to get youngsters involved in BPRC Shootings.
Though she shoots up my ammo faster then I can load it.
YMMV, folks and guns like different loading. The main thing is we're out there enjoying shooting sports.
The various repeaters like the Marlin are not real 45-70s since they cannot handle the 500 grain govt. loads. Load them hot with 400 grain bullets and they are only fit for a few rounds while hunting. I like to shoot a lot of rounds and the 45-70 is very good for that application using cast bullets and BP equivalent velocities. The best 45-70 rifles for high volume shooting are single shots weighing 10 to 12 lbs.
If you are only a hunter you might not understand but for some of us shooting, not hunting is the most valued activity. I have been shooting 45-70s since 1972 and that includes about a dozen 45-70 rifles. There is little point to the heavy loads since your 44 Mag suggestion can work the other way too. If you are set on heavy loads buy a 460 Weatherby. I am sure it will satisfy your curiosity about heavy loads and how they kill 80 lb southern whitetails.
If you are only a hunter you might not understand but for some of us shooting, not hunting is the most valued activity. I have been shooting 45-70s since 1972 and that includes about a dozen 45-70 rifles. There is little point to the heavy loads since your 44 Mag suggestion can work the other way too. If you are set on heavy loads buy a 460 Weatherby. I am sure it will satisfy your curiosity about heavy loads and how they kill 80 lb southern whitetails.
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Kreyzhorse
New member
I've killed deer with standard 300 vs Winchester loads in my 45-70. Don't hand load but always want to load some hotter rounds for my Ruger No. 1.
If by chance you drop one and get a Recovered bullet, I'd love to see it.
As far as overkill, my buddy dropped a doe with his 375 H&H. Overkill? It was dead before it hit the ground. My 7 Rem Mag did more damage on the doe I killed this year than the 375 did to his.
If by chance you drop one and get a Recovered bullet, I'd love to see it.
As far as overkill, my buddy dropped a doe with his 375 H&H. Overkill? It was dead before it hit the ground. My 7 Rem Mag did more damage on the doe I killed this year than the 375 did to his.
I have killed deer with my 375 H&H and I shot one with my 460.
The 375 H&H used a 250 gr Barnes original and the 460 used a 400 gr Barnes Original.
Both were a lot less than full level loads...a little more than the book listed start levels.
Lots less meat damage than other calibers.
The 375 H&H used a 250 gr Barnes original and the 460 used a 400 gr Barnes Original.
Both were a lot less than full level loads...a little more than the book listed start levels.
Lots less meat damage than other calibers.