HR 1369: Require Insurance for Gun Owners

Not to mention that losses from firearms are typically the result of intentional acts. If anybody has an idea for how you make money as an insurance company by insuring against intentional acts, I'd love to hear it.

It sounds like they are trying to make gun ownership conditional on owning an insurance policy that cannot be supported in a free market.
 
These proposals have been floating around various state legislatures for a number of years, and none have passed,; but that may change this year. California has a proposed mandate, and I suspect Connecticut will go that route as well. Leaving aside the fact that this bill will never make itout of the House, and maybe not even the Senate, let us look at what is sought to be achieved, and whether these proposals have any realistic chance of achieving those goals.

The purpose of this type of law is, according to the sponsors, to insure against the billions of dollars of medical costs incurred annually to pay for gun shot injuries, much of which cost is borne by public entities. The thought is that if the owners of guns were insured, there would be an avenue available to recover these costs. Seems simple enough in the abstract, but does it work in the real world?

In insurance lingo, first parties are the insureds, third parties are the folks suing the insureds. This distinction is particularly important as it explains where these bills go astray. Liability insurance protects the first party insured from liability claims asserted by third parties; it is not protection for the benefit of the third parties. Yet this is what these bills assume--that liability insurance protects the interests of the person shot, rather than the interests of the person doing the shooting.

Instead, these policies will provide coverage only where the insured acts negligently; intentional torts are specifically excluded in policies, and by states in the various states that bar insurers from insuring for intentional torts, the idea being that criminals should not be indemnified by insurance companies for their wrongful acts. In other words, if I shoot you because I don't like the way you look, or your race, gang affiliation, whatever, a conviction of intentional assault and/or battery and/or murder will preclude indemnity (payment of damages) from my carrier against third-party claims. On the other hand, if I shoot you negligently e.g., a hunting or training accident, these policies will provide coverage. Imperfect self-defense will likely fall within the scope of coverage, because the elements of this defense are a negligent belief in the right to use deadly force. But murder is clearly out. Gang shootings are out. The vast majority of shootings are out. This insurance mandate will therefore have little if any meaningful effect on the costs associated with "gun violence" in America today.

Do the proponents of these bills know this? They must. So they have invented a backdoor to create a basis for negligence liability of gun owners whose firearms are lost or stolen, with an escape hatch (just to be fair). If your guns are lost or stolen and not reported to the police/state/government within a specified period of time after such knowledge is gained, then the gun owner is potentially liable for any later criminal act perpetrated with that firearm. The "safe harbor" is the reporting of the loss of the firearm within the statutory period.

It is unclear whether this would be a strict liability or a negligence liability, but he better view is a newly established negligence liability. How would this work? Typically, once out of possession, one is not liable for what someone else did with the gun, particularly if it is an "intervening criminal act." Since it just doesn't seem fair to hold a gun owner liable for what a thief did with the gun, the bills create negligence liability through imposing requirements for "proper" storage of the firearm, i.e, gun safes. If you fail to "properly secure" your firearm in your home (no matter what the Supreme Court said in Heller about the constitutionality of such a requirement), then the subsequent criminal act is "foreseeable" and the gun owner liable in whole or in part. While you are probably liable in most states now if a child gets a hold of one of your guns and shoots himself or another in your home, this law would extend that liability outside the home to wherever the gun ends up and in whoever's possession--unless it is reported stolen. And because insurers are bound to defend where there is a potential claim under the policy, carriers will be more likely to indemnify owners in these cases for their negligent failure to secure their arms. To make it short and sweet, this plan creates a new liability for gun owners and then requires them to buy insurance for it. Cute, huh?

Do we have such coverage now under our homeowner's or renter's policies? Unfortunately, there is no one right answer, because the coverage clauses of different policies are worded differently; while one policy might cover you for a self-defense shooting, others will not; when you shoot someone in self defense, the shooting is intentional, and many carriers will seek to avoid coverage. Claims for accidental shootings are likely to be covered now, so these new insurance requirements will not buy you something you did not already have. But it is clear that your homeowner's carrier will not defend any criminal action brought against you--those are the province of the special policies issued by a number of organizations, including USCCA and the NRA. This is important coverage to obtain, especially if you carry a concealed weapon, as your criminal defense attorney will cost you dearly. These policies are not expensive.

Do these proposed laws result in de facto gun registration? Arguable. If you own expensive firearms, you should probably have them listed (scheduled) on you homeowner's policy any way because of limitation on the insurance for certain valuables. Will insurers decline to insure because you have firearms? Only if there is a strict liability imposed (as there is with dog bites in many places, which is why they will not insure vicious breeds). Otherwise, there are 100 million firearm owners in the US, and someone will gladly insure this market, particularly where the circumstances where claims are actually payable are not drastically different than they are today.\

So the ultimate conclusion that must be reached is that the proponents of these bills--not sure who they are--are more interested in disincentivising gun ownership, not in "doing good" by protecting the "innocent gunshot victims."
 
Yup, if you make gun ownership expensive, time consuming and unpopular you will slowly reduce new gun owners and eventually the gun haters or indifferent will be the majority. Then legislation will be a breeze.
 
This has been pushed in a number of states recently, and has failed in every one of them, including Connecticut and Maryland.

If it couldn't pass there, there's no chance of it getting past Congress.
 
@ Mike Irwin

Although stiff gun control legislation isn't taking shape nationally, it is happening in various states one by one. It wouldn't surprise me if something like this passes in NY or CA, or even if they tried it here in NJ. And if it ever passes in one state, others will surely follow.
 
And if it ever passes in one state, others will surely follow.

Getting other states to follow will probably require the old carrot and stick. Pass some sort of "legislation" for the "safety" of the children or forfeit Federal dollars for some project or another.
 
"And if it ever passes in one state, others will surely follow."

And that's different from any other law... how?

Even if some pass such laws, other's won't.

It's the federal level at which we truly have to worry.
 
The main reason this bill will go nowhere, just as the attempts to pass such legislation at the state level have gone nowhere, is that the insurance industry is opposed to the whole idea.

At least two industry trade groups* have come out against the bill, on the grounds that:
  1. as written, it would require them to cover liability for illegal acts, and they're not about to do that;
  2. if it were rewritten to exclude illegal acts, it would be pointless, as accidents account for about 2% of gun deaths;
  3. the government can require the purchase of such insurance, but it can't require insurers to offer it;
  4. it could backfire by encouraging negligence on the part of gun owners who are covered.
Given that the insurance industry has a very powerful lobby, and that the government has a long history of bending over backward to accommodate it, this is way, way down on the list of things I'm worried about.
_____
* The Insurance Information Institute, and the American Insurance Association.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politi...ance-be-in-reducing-accidents-or-gun-violence
http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2013/02/21/gun-liability-insurance/
 
I could support the concept of gun owners being required to have insurance, ONLY if the rest of the nation (every single non gun owning individual) was ALSO required to buy insurance against the possibility of an un- or under insured gun owner.

They make us do that with our car insurance.

Doesn't NRA membership still come with a couple million dollars of accident insurance? It used to (I haven't checked lately). Provide proof of insurance for a gun purchace? Simple, show them your NRA membership card!:D
 
It was mentioned that gun laws are passing in states all over or that if one passes others will follow. That is true, however, for the most part consistent with the red/blue state map.
 
I would agree that this is like a poll tax.

The problem is that precedent has already been set in a recent federal court hearing where US citizens are required to purchase a certain type of insurance.

Regardless of whether we agree with it or not, they already have set the groundwork for this.

Will it pass in Washington. Doubtful, unless the anti's take more seats.

(kept intentionally ambiguous to keep it non political)
 
So why do they want us disarmed?

I think the vast majority of gun banners are simply afraid of guns: your guns, my guns, the criminal's guns. They don't know anything about guns, but have been conditioned (brainwashed) to think the only people who should have guns are the police and military. Of course, they don't know that their chances of being shot by a policeman is about 10 times greater than their being shot by a concealed carry permitee. And unless your career choice is burglary, you aren't very likely to be shot by a home/gun owner. And they are incapable of understanding the vast danger of having the government own all the guns.

Then, there is the conspiracy theory. I generally scoff at such things, but this has me thinking.

So the Gov't has been absolutely flooding the country with M1, new actual cash for the last ten years, markedly accelerated in the past four. This has long-term affects on future inflation. They have also been flooding the world with dollars through the incredible Quantitative Easing program, where they create dollars - just make them up - to buy their own Treasuries doing two things - maintaining the appearance of demand for US Treasuries, and keeping interest rates at historical lows.

China owns a $ trillion or more in treasuries. At some point they will conclude the US can't honor its debts, or at some point we will just default on our interest payments when we run out of discretionary funds, because there are still honest people at the Treasury despite its recent leadership. China will start a sell-off, going back to hard assets like precious metals. the world will follow. Hyper-inflation could easily result. We would sink deeper into insolvency without the constant flow of borrowed dollars. Prices will shoot up on all desirable commodities - water, gasoline, food, alcohol, etc. Massive uncontrollable inflation will occur. The population will be unable to find, let alone buy, gas for their cars and food for their children.

Now if you were the govt, would you want an armed populace?

Anyhow, it bears consideration. Not saying it is true, or even likely. But it is possible.
 
Did the Loyalists of the Revolutionary time period try to disarm the Patriots prior to the revolution? Is this a repeat of history?
 
Punisher 1 - - - - "Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana

Of course, true American history purposely hasnt been taught in 'schools' for a very long time. Just ask any h.s. senior about the American revolution and watch the blank look you get. And that same look will likely be displayed by their parents - - - this degradation has gone on for 100 years.
They also arent taught about logical thinking or arguments. If they were, theyd see that the odds of being a victim of a mass shooting are less than being struck by lightning. This is all a farce, and is really about CONTROL not 'safety'.

Will Americans defend rights they know nothing about . . . I don't know. How can a people who are so easily manipulated (just look who they vote for) . . remain free ?
 
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