HOWA 6.5X55
- Thread starter FourEyes
- Start date
I really don't think a few thousands diff in rim diameter will have much effect and the rest of the case will expand to fit the chamber. What MIGHT make a diff is the dimensions of your sizing die if reloading for accuracy. Firing SAAMI spec ammo in a commercial sporter rifle is a lesson in compromises from the get go.
Sure Shot Mc Gee
New member
Howa. Nicely detailed Japanese import. 6.5 X 55 reduced recoiling caliber. If that what you want. Why not.
@mobuck: I don't want this to degenerate into a discussion on 6.5x55 chambers, but I guess we can briefly talk about it. One of the purposes of the forum, I assume, is to exchange ideas and learn and I never fail to learn something here.
For the 6.5x55, the differences between some cartridge brass and the chamber are more than a few thousandths and I think that was "mete's" point. As I posted above, new 6.5x55 winchester brass measured .472 at the base. The minimum SAAMI chamber is .4815 at the base. That's pretty close to a .010 difference. I couldn't measure the chamber in my remington 700, but the bolt face did measure .485 to .487 in diameter. Again, the entire situation isn't ideal, but so far I haven't had any problems with reloading or extraction.
As for the chambers, IF american and european manufacturers are following SAAMI or CIL specifications, then both saami and cil chambers should be cut for the larger .4803 case diameter. When I compared saami and cil specifications they were the same (at least at the base). So american and european chambers should be the same. Of course, as you say, that's a big "if". We know for sure that american 6.5x55 ammunition can be undersized.
Surprisingly, I was left with more confidence in the european chambers. CIL (Commission Internationale Permanente) is sort of a saami counterpart. However, sammi standards are voluntary, while CIL standards are mandatory for member countries. Czechoslovakia, Finland, Germany, and Italy are members. As for Howa, who knows. Japan is not a CIL member but I would hope that japan is following saami specifications. (You don't have to be a european country to be a cil member. Chile and the united arab emirates are a members, for example.)
For the 6.5x55, the differences between some cartridge brass and the chamber are more than a few thousandths and I think that was "mete's" point. As I posted above, new 6.5x55 winchester brass measured .472 at the base. The minimum SAAMI chamber is .4815 at the base. That's pretty close to a .010 difference. I couldn't measure the chamber in my remington 700, but the bolt face did measure .485 to .487 in diameter. Again, the entire situation isn't ideal, but so far I haven't had any problems with reloading or extraction.
As for the chambers, IF american and european manufacturers are following SAAMI or CIL specifications, then both saami and cil chambers should be cut for the larger .4803 case diameter. When I compared saami and cil specifications they were the same (at least at the base). So american and european chambers should be the same. Of course, as you say, that's a big "if". We know for sure that american 6.5x55 ammunition can be undersized.
Surprisingly, I was left with more confidence in the european chambers. CIL (Commission Internationale Permanente) is sort of a saami counterpart. However, sammi standards are voluntary, while CIL standards are mandatory for member countries. Czechoslovakia, Finland, Germany, and Italy are members. As for Howa, who knows. Japan is not a CIL member but I would hope that japan is following saami specifications. (You don't have to be a european country to be a cil member. Chile and the united arab emirates are a members, for example.)
it is not a US vs Euro thing
there was a rumour way back when that the sneaky norweigans had bigger chambers and cases in their Krags than the Swedes had in their m/96s, Norway was in an unvolunteray union with Sweden at the time so if push came to shove they could chamber our ammo and not vice versa.
Then over time it went from a military round to a commercial
modern rifles can handle higher pressures than old m96s. somewhat of a rumour to blow up, especially ones from the brand STIGA
many m/96s were reused on the commercial market and they could have seen heavy use. even rechamberd in way too big of calibres
6,5x55 SE is the older one 6,5x55 Scandinavian is the modern one
there was a rumour way back when that the sneaky norweigans had bigger chambers and cases in their Krags than the Swedes had in their m/96s, Norway was in an unvolunteray union with Sweden at the time so if push came to shove they could chamber our ammo and not vice versa.
Then over time it went from a military round to a commercial
modern rifles can handle higher pressures than old m96s. somewhat of a rumour to blow up, especially ones from the brand STIGA
many m/96s were reused on the commercial market and they could have seen heavy use. even rechamberd in way too big of calibres
6,5x55 SE is the older one 6,5x55 Scandinavian is the modern one
My Howa shpeal:
I have a (1) Howa 1500 270, (4) Rem700s, (2) Pre 64 Win M70s and ~~(100) 98 Mausers... comparing them...
The book to get is "Bolt Action Rifles" 4th edition by de Haas.
Modern Firearms + Amazon webstore - Bolt Action Rifles
The 98 Mauser has:
1) flat bottomed receiver to take torque from rifling
2) controlled feed
3) claw typed extractor
4) safety on firing pin, often modified to be 2 or 3 position M70 type
5) multi stage gas filter on firing pin hole for safety
6) bolt handle is integrally forged as part of bolt body
7) safety lug below rear bridge
8) integral recoil lug
9) knife ejector in bolt lug slot
10 an inner C ring to put the tenon threads in compression
The rem 700
1) receiver made from round tubing
2) push feed
3) little wimpy extractor
4) safety on trigger
5) simple bolt
6) bolt handle tacked on with screw and solder
7) nothing for safety if bolt lugs fail.
8) recoil lug is a modified washer that is captured by the receiver and barrel
9) plunger ejector
10) No inner C ring, so the only thing holding the barrel to the receiver is the tenon threads in tension
Of the ~100 bolt action covered in the above book, they seem to all be on the spectrum somewhere between the simple Rem700 and the complex 1898 Mauser design.
The Howa 1500:
1) flat bottom receiver
2) push feed
3) short claw extractor is bigger than rem, but smaller than M98
4) three position bolt safety
5) simple bolt
6) Integral bolt handle
7) nothing
8) integral recoil lug
9) plunger ejector
I would give the Howa Mauser scale = ~50% Mauser
I would give the Howa Rem700 scale = ~50% Rem700
For me the deal killer with Howa is the metric threads on the barrel.
1.5mm thread pitch.
I can do that, but I have to get my hands dirty changing gears, and I have to think.
I have a (1) Howa 1500 270, (4) Rem700s, (2) Pre 64 Win M70s and ~~(100) 98 Mausers... comparing them...
The book to get is "Bolt Action Rifles" 4th edition by de Haas.
Modern Firearms + Amazon webstore - Bolt Action Rifles
The 98 Mauser has:
1) flat bottomed receiver to take torque from rifling
2) controlled feed
3) claw typed extractor
4) safety on firing pin, often modified to be 2 or 3 position M70 type
5) multi stage gas filter on firing pin hole for safety
6) bolt handle is integrally forged as part of bolt body
7) safety lug below rear bridge
8) integral recoil lug
9) knife ejector in bolt lug slot
10 an inner C ring to put the tenon threads in compression
The rem 700
1) receiver made from round tubing
2) push feed
3) little wimpy extractor
4) safety on trigger
5) simple bolt
6) bolt handle tacked on with screw and solder
7) nothing for safety if bolt lugs fail.
8) recoil lug is a modified washer that is captured by the receiver and barrel
9) plunger ejector
10) No inner C ring, so the only thing holding the barrel to the receiver is the tenon threads in tension
Of the ~100 bolt action covered in the above book, they seem to all be on the spectrum somewhere between the simple Rem700 and the complex 1898 Mauser design.
The Howa 1500:
1) flat bottom receiver
2) push feed
3) short claw extractor is bigger than rem, but smaller than M98
4) three position bolt safety
5) simple bolt
6) Integral bolt handle
7) nothing
8) integral recoil lug
9) plunger ejector
I would give the Howa Mauser scale = ~50% Mauser
I would give the Howa Rem700 scale = ~50% Rem700
For me the deal killer with Howa is the metric threads on the barrel.
1.5mm thread pitch.
I can do that, but I have to get my hands dirty changing gears, and I have to think.
reynolds357
New member
My deal killer is getting the barrels off the Howas.
Just bought a HOWA 1500 6.5x55
Hi all - new to forum. Looking forward to conversing with you.
I just took my new HOWA to the range and WOW! First four rounds (Sellier & Bellot ammo) were touching at 100 yds. Then I got all excited and my heart rate went up and I scattered a few rounds. After I remembered to inhale and calmed down a bit I consistently punched 5/8" or less groups. I am absolutely thrilled.
My next chore is to chrony the S&B rounds to see if there is any sense in reloading. I doubt that I will better the accuracy but if the round is just pooping down range at 2200 fps - that won't do for hunting (hoping to punch a pronghorn at 300-400 yds this fall). I have read that the nominal velocity of S&B 140 grain cartridges is 2650 fps. However I do not know what length barrel that came out of. The HOWA barrel is 22 inches - I am betting that the test barrel was longer - at least 24 inches and probably longer. The velocity out of the HOWA is probably accordingly less. The barrel length is the only criticism I have of the HOWA. If a 24"or 26" version was available I would have opted for that.
Hi all - new to forum. Looking forward to conversing with you.
I just took my new HOWA to the range and WOW! First four rounds (Sellier & Bellot ammo) were touching at 100 yds. Then I got all excited and my heart rate went up and I scattered a few rounds. After I remembered to inhale and calmed down a bit I consistently punched 5/8" or less groups. I am absolutely thrilled.
My next chore is to chrony the S&B rounds to see if there is any sense in reloading. I doubt that I will better the accuracy but if the round is just pooping down range at 2200 fps - that won't do for hunting (hoping to punch a pronghorn at 300-400 yds this fall). I have read that the nominal velocity of S&B 140 grain cartridges is 2650 fps. However I do not know what length barrel that came out of. The HOWA barrel is 22 inches - I am betting that the test barrel was longer - at least 24 inches and probably longer. The velocity out of the HOWA is probably accordingly less. The barrel length is the only criticism I have of the HOWA. If a 24"or 26" version was available I would have opted for that.
steveNChunter
New member
As for the Howa rifle, if you aren't terribly concerned with weight, they're great. A better built rifle cannot be had for the same price range. The stocks on most of the models aren't that great, so I'd recommend buying a barreled action and choosing a good aftermarket stock for it.
As for the 6.5x55, there's nothing wrong with it, but factory ammo is not loaded to quite the pressure it could be in a modern rifle. The .260 rem will give all the velocity of the swede and maybe a tad more, from a short action. However, if you want to load the heavier 6.5 bullets, you may run out of magazine space with a short action .260 rem. That's where the slightly shorter 6.5 creedmoor shines. IMO you're better off with a .260 rem for hunting, and better off with a 6.5 creedmoor for target/long range shooting of the heavier bullets in a short action.
If you reload, you can get a bit more out of the Swede. Or you can take full advantage of that long action and build a 6.5-06AI or 6.5x284.
As for the 6.5x55, there's nothing wrong with it, but factory ammo is not loaded to quite the pressure it could be in a modern rifle. The .260 rem will give all the velocity of the swede and maybe a tad more, from a short action. However, if you want to load the heavier 6.5 bullets, you may run out of magazine space with a short action .260 rem. That's where the slightly shorter 6.5 creedmoor shines. IMO you're better off with a .260 rem for hunting, and better off with a 6.5 creedmoor for target/long range shooting of the heavier bullets in a short action.
If you reload, you can get a bit more out of the Swede. Or you can take full advantage of that long action and build a 6.5-06AI or 6.5x284.
I've never shot a factory load in my Swedish mauser, but my go-to load is ballistically a twin of that load, if their data is correct. I load the Hornady 140gr standard (interlock?) bullet at an average of 2650 fps.
It is a seemingly flat shooting (never shot it beyond 100yds on paper) load that is a deer killing load extraordinaire.... works on smallish pigs, too... never got to shoot it at a larger one.
It is a seemingly flat shooting (never shot it beyond 100yds on paper) load that is a deer killing load extraordinaire.... works on smallish pigs, too... never got to shoot it at a larger one.
6.5swedeforelk
New member
Quote"...if there is any sense in reloading.
I doubt that I will better the accuracy but if the round
is just pooping down range at 2200 fps -
that won't do for hunting (hoping to punch a
pronghorn at 300-400 yds this fall).
I have read that the nominal velocity of S&B
140 grain cartridges is 2650 fps.
However I do not know what length barrel that came out of.
The HOWA barrel is 22 inches - I am betting that the test barrel was longer - at least 24 inches and probably longer.
The velocity out of the HOWA is probably accordingly less.
The barrel length is the only criticism I have of the HOWA.
If a 24"or 26" version was available I would have opted for that..."
Welcome to the forum, Earl.
I too am new here.
I'm sure that you'll like your 6.5x55.
I certainly would not sweat the loss of velocity in a shorter barrel.
My 6.5 Swede is lopped off at 19"
and I load nothing but 140gr at a leisurely + 2500fps.
It's taken dozens of elk, some moose & bears.
In truth, they were all short range & about 80% neck shots.
But one timber wolf was shot at 600yds (did need two shots to get the range.)
I doubt that I will better the accuracy but if the round
is just pooping down range at 2200 fps -
that won't do for hunting (hoping to punch a
pronghorn at 300-400 yds this fall).
I have read that the nominal velocity of S&B
140 grain cartridges is 2650 fps.
However I do not know what length barrel that came out of.
The HOWA barrel is 22 inches - I am betting that the test barrel was longer - at least 24 inches and probably longer.
The velocity out of the HOWA is probably accordingly less.
The barrel length is the only criticism I have of the HOWA.
If a 24"or 26" version was available I would have opted for that..."
Welcome to the forum, Earl.
I too am new here.
I'm sure that you'll like your 6.5x55.
I certainly would not sweat the loss of velocity in a shorter barrel.
My 6.5 Swede is lopped off at 19"
and I load nothing but 140gr at a leisurely + 2500fps.
It's taken dozens of elk, some moose & bears.
In truth, they were all short range & about 80% neck shots.
But one timber wolf was shot at 600yds (did need two shots to get the range.)
At Earlbz:
Most ammo makers post the ballistic results from 24 inch bbls.
Re: S&B ammo, they do not post BC on their web site. When I tried their HPC, 308 win, 180 grain - their ballistic tables are pretty much close to what I made, but I could not replicate calculation. (50 meters / 100 meters / 200 meters)
Also the scope height, to the bore on their ballistic tables is not posted.
With unknown BC and unknown scope height, this makes two unknown variables.
However, ammo performed fairly consitently up to 200 meters. Judging by hits grouping on target, but I was not measuring velocity either. All sub moa.
Most ammo makers post the ballistic results from 24 inch bbls.
Re: S&B ammo, they do not post BC on their web site. When I tried their HPC, 308 win, 180 grain - their ballistic tables are pretty much close to what I made, but I could not replicate calculation. (50 meters / 100 meters / 200 meters)
Also the scope height, to the bore on their ballistic tables is not posted.
With unknown BC and unknown scope height, this makes two unknown variables.
However, ammo performed fairly consitently up to 200 meters. Judging by hits grouping on target, but I was not measuring velocity either. All sub moa.
green_MTman
New member
this is what i did to get my 6.5-55 swedish mauser
bought a inexpensive Savage 110 in .308 and had it re chambered to 6.5-55 with a match grade cut rifled 26" barrel
i went with the 26" to get better velocity from the slower burning powders the 6.5-55 tends to shoot well.
you can get any gun rechambered with a match grade barrel,even a NEF handi rifle.you just need to remember to make sure the caliber you buy is more powerfull than the caliber you rechamber for.
for instance .308 win to 6.5-55
or 30-06 to 25-06
or .300 WSM to 6.5-284 norma
bought a inexpensive Savage 110 in .308 and had it re chambered to 6.5-55 with a match grade cut rifled 26" barrel
i went with the 26" to get better velocity from the slower burning powders the 6.5-55 tends to shoot well.
you can get any gun rechambered with a match grade barrel,even a NEF handi rifle.you just need to remember to make sure the caliber you buy is more powerfull than the caliber you rechamber for.
for instance .308 win to 6.5-55
or 30-06 to 25-06
or .300 WSM to 6.5-284 norma
True, but it's a bit more complicated than that. You've accurately described the situation NOW, but a few years ago Howa made all Weatherbys, including the Mark V and the Vanguard. All those "Made in Japan" Mark Vs were made by Howa. Mark V production has since moved to the US.
The Vanguard is Howa's 1500 with some Weatherby styling changes. The 1500 has also been sold as a Mossberg and a Smith & Wesson.
Amen.
steveNChunter
New member
Yes. The S&W 1500 and Mossberg 1500 were re-branded Howas. Not sure when but both models have been discontinued for several years.
Buds Gun Shop shows these in stock on 5/27.
My choice would be the stainless action fitted to a Boyd Stock of your choice:
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/716007207
Here is a carbon steel model with a Hogue overmolded stock and Nicco-sterling scope. A .308 that I handled at a local gunshop today with the same stock and scope weighed at least 8-9 pounds, kind of heavy for my taste, but a good deal.
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/411548911
Bud's also has CZs and others in 6.5x55 in much higher price ranges.
My choice would be the stainless action fitted to a Boyd Stock of your choice:
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/716007207
Here is a carbon steel model with a Hogue overmolded stock and Nicco-sterling scope. A .308 that I handled at a local gunshop today with the same stock and scope weighed at least 8-9 pounds, kind of heavy for my taste, but a good deal.
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/411548911
Bud's also has CZs and others in 6.5x55 in much higher price ranges.