How to use iron sights?

Wow, this thread has explained this wonderfully. I've been struggling with this as well and have been splitting the bull with the front sight post and trying to zero like that.

My only observation is that this seems great for shooting at doping bulls sized for specific ranges, but wouldn't that mean that when shooting at other practical targets (like a hostile enemy or whatever) you would have to hold the radius of the respective doping bull below the desired point of impact(center mass)? Or am I over thinking it. It seems that while it makes it easier to keep tight groups on doping bullseyes, it would make it more difficult to aim small on other targets that do not match the doping bull for a given range.

Mark
 
I've never been in combat, but I imagine a 7 has about the same effect as a X.

The guys who are expected to make precision hits at 200+ yards probably have optics.
 
Last edited:
mehavey claims:
Your eye does naturally center the intersection of the post and target in the brightest part of the aperture circle -- which optics have that eye perceive as it's center.
Click to expand...
Which one of them (post or target) does the eye naturally center when the post does not intersect with the target?

How does the eye move and realign the rays of light coming from both the post or target and the aperture such that either one aligns to the center of the aperture?

What about aperture front sights where the bullseye doesn't intersect with anything; it just floats in the middle of the aiming ring? What part of that front sight picture does the eye naturally center?
 
Last edited:
As an aside.

This is an example of one of the reasons why RDS sights are such a "force multiplier" on the modern battlefield.

They are easier and quicker to learn/align than traditional iron sights.

That being said, the key to any aiming method is consistency.

You don't have to be "using them right" as long as you are using the the SAME ever time.

There are techniques that will make it easier and that play to the natural tendencies of the human eye/brain combination to line things up, but the key is alway going to be consistency.

Get to the point that you "do it the same" every single time without thought, once you get to that Zen point, you will be much more accurate. :D

If you do it "wrong" very consistently you will be more accurate that doing it "right" less consistently. ;)

Since I figure you are shooting a SCAR 16, I would make sure that your barrel screws are tight and equally torqued to the correct torque then start working on those things that many people here have suggested.

Mr. Stuart on this board would be an excellent resource to tap or other guys shooting National Match competitions.
 
Which one of them (post or target) does the eye naturally center when the post does not intersect with the target?
Click to expand...
Neither. The brain/eye system goes to the center of the circle of light.

How does the eye move and realign the rays of light coming from both the post or target and the aperture such that either one aligns to the center of the aperture?
Click to expand...
Rays of light do not move. As noted above, the brain/eye centers itself in the light circle.
The shooter (i.e, the brain) can train to either center the post top there (with target above it),
or the post top there again (with the target centered behind it).

In "target" shooting, we "generally" locate the target above the post for greatest precison
against the fine tangent line of the bull -- but the post top is still centered in the light ring.

In hunting, we "generally" center both the target (e.g., the heart-lung area of a deer) and the
top of the post -- but the post top is still centered in the light ring.
 
Iron sights on the rifle come pre-aligned. The job of the rifleman is to get his eye in alignment with the sight. With an apeture sight, the front post should be centered vertically and horizontally in the apeture. Once the eye and sights are aligned as described, the shooter "welds" the cheek in that spot, and aquires a sight picture. Sight picture is nothing more than placing the properly aligned sights on target. I am assuming from the op that the shooter is shooting from a supported position. What kind of sight picture you use is up to you, the trick is achieving the same sight picture every time. I prefer a six-o-clock hold, it is far easier for me to consistently align my sights on a defined bottom edge of a target than guessing where the center is. Now the hard part. Focus. Focus your eye on the front sight. Focus your mind on keeping the front sight on the target.Your eye CANNOT focus on more than one thing at a time. If you see the sights and the target in focus together, you are fooling yourself.
 
To add to what Bart B said- all of his advice is spot on:

I learned this from reading Jim Owens books- put a pencil mark diagonaly on the front sight- it forces you to focus on the front sight.
Try it, it really works.

Also don't worry too much about the aperture size- as long as the aperture is smaller than the pupil of your eye, the sight alignment will be correct. I use a 0.050" aperture on my DCM rifle which is about just right for me- it gives me good focus on the front sight and doesn't block out too much light when the sun is overhead or behind me.

I tend to use a 'center hold' for target shooting. I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the 6-oclock hold, its just one more thing for my brain to process. With a center hold you don't have to worry about the target shrinking or enlarging due to sun position- center is always center. I sometimes switch to a 6-oclock hold but then end up going back to a center hold on the next match.
 
Last edited:
Mehavey says the brain/eye system goes to the center of the circle of light.

If that's true, then please explain the following.

Sighting/aiming aids used for marksmanship training have been built with a front post (or aperture) sight and an aperture rear sight, both affixed to a board solidly mounted on a table. The sights are aligned on a bullseye downrange such that when looking through the center of the rear aperture, the post top (or front aperture) is centered in the aperture's ring of light and its top just barely touches the bottom of the bullseye (or the bullseye's perfectly centered in the front aperture).

Trainees look through the rear aperture and as they move their aiming eye around in all directions. They see the front sight move to a point on the target off the bullseye opposite in direction to what their eye moved. Moving the eye to the right and up makes the front post move left and down relative to the bullseye.

When the aiming eye sees the front sight off center in the rear aperture's ring but still puts it correctly on the target, the shot will go off center in the direction they move their head. In firing exercises, they intentionally put the front sight correctly on the target but to the left and right of center visually in the rear aperture and they see their shots go right and left of center
 
Trainees look through the rear aperture and as they move their aiming eye around in all directions.
They see the front sight move to a point on the target off the bullseye opposite in direction to
what their eye moved. Moving the eye to the right and up makes the front post move left and down
relative to the bullseye.
Click to expand...

As many know, it's called parallax from being off center in a three-point reference frame. Were the shooter to decide to use any portion but the center of the first reference point -- the aperture -- then the line-of-sight to the second point (the front sight) would set off at a different off-angle to the third point (the target).
5aouwy.jpg


I admit to being confused to what point you are trying to make.... That the eye/brain does
not align itself naturally to the center of light--and thereby fix the reference frame?

Or that a shooter very deliberately not using the center of light is going lose his most repeatable reference frame?
 
Last edited:
Robertsig asks:

I was consistently hitting targets out to 500 yards with my M-14.

How is this even possible?

I have 20/20 vision and any small target past 100 yards would look way too fuzzy to make out. At 500 yards, I wouldn't even know it was there unless it was a barn.

The targets were man sized shiloettes from the waist up. It was a competitive shoot against a company of men (125) of us. I hit 49 of 50 targets at ranges from 25 to 500 yards. You walked a long dirt ramp and had to asume various shooting positions when the targets popped up. THey could be to your left, right or in front of you. Some were timed to pop up when you passed them and had to shoot behind you within a few seconds timing.
I did not get penalized for one shot because it was a squib round. They gave me a perfect score.
I won a trophy and plaque. I donated the trophy to the trophy room at Ft. Jackson, SC. I still have the plaque. My company was Echo-7-2 on Tank Hill.
The event took place during the Spring of 1967.
 
Anyone who can shoot no worse than 1 MOA for 15 or more consecutive shots with these sights knows they are myths.
Click to expand...
I didn't say alignment wasn't important with an aperture sight, what I said was that it's less critical because your eye sort of handles it for you.

In theory, and in my experience, your eye will "semi"-automatically center a bull in the aperture and then it's just a matter of putting the front sight where it belongs.

The alignment of the three elements is important, but half of it (getting the target centered in the aperture) happens without so much conscious effort as when you're aligning a front and rear open sight with a target.
 
Here's the theory on aperture sights.

It's a law of physics which states that light when passing through a circle has its highest intensity in the center of that circle. The human eye when looking through a circle focuses on the point of highest light intensity, i.e. the center. Because of this, the eye finds the center of the circle intuitively.

So, the proper way to use an aperture sight is this: look through the peep, pickup the front sight, put the front sight on the vital zone of your target, focus back on the front sight and press the trigger to make the shot.

Very fast!
 
mehavey, I like your diagram showing how things align with the sights and barrel to the aiming eye. I'd considered putting one in this thread, but yours is much better than what I was going to do.

The point I'm trying to make is the eye/brain does not align itself naturally to the center of light--and thereby fix the reference frame.

There's no way the human eye automatically (nor semiautomatically or naturally) aligns anything with its optical axis. If you move your aiming eye to the aperture and first see the front sight off to its edge, you have to intentionally and physically move your eye and rifle such that the sights align themselves on your eye's optical axis, then put them on the target. If you don't do this, the sights and target will stay where you first see them through the aperture.

It is very critical, not just semi-critical. How else would the prone records using both post and aperture front sights have 15 to 19 out of 20 shots inside 1 MOA at ranges from 200 to 1000 yards in high power rifle matches? And both records and good scores in smallbore are twice that under 1 MOA with aperture sights. It's most critical when even the very best folks can hold a hand-held shoulder fired rifle is about 1/2 MOA.

I'm getting in touch with some ophthalmologists to discuss this. One of us may be misusing terms explaining our perspective and point of view.
 
Last edited:
If you move your aiming eye to the aperture and first see the front sight off to its edge, you have to intentionally and physically move your eye and rifle such that the sights align themselves on your eye's optical axis, then put them on the target.
Click to expand...
Well, you have to adjust your shooting position and move the rifle to get on target.

The point is that you don't have to work hard on concentrating to get and keep the target centered in the aperture like you have to concentrate on aligning the rear sight precisely with the front sight with open sights. It happens--and it's necessary for it to happen--but it's not something I've ever had to really work on in order to MAKE it happen.

As far as getting the front sight on target, that's where you have to move/swing the rifle or alter your position in order to make it all work.

I don't move my eye around much, it's not really possible to move your eye around with respect to the rear sight if you have a decent cheekweld on the rifle. I'm looking at the target and I bring the rifle up between my eye and the target as I get into position. Or I may get in position and then put my face down onto the stock. I may need to adjust my overall position and/or swing the rifle a bit to move the front sight onto the target, but I don't get on target by altering my cheekweld to intentionally move my eye around with respect to the aperture.

If I'm in position and the target's not in the aperture then it's time to shift my entire position, not time to move my eye by shifting my cheek around on the rifle.
 
To: Robertsig:

Thank you. They wanted me to go to sniper school but I declined. That would have meant a ticket to Vietnam. I wound up going there anyway as a gunner on a helicopter gunship, and later the same year as an infantryman.
Wounded twice but not bad. Made it home with all my pieces. Thank God for that, many were not as lucky. No complaints here.
I'm retired from law enforcement now, but very active in the Wounded Warrior Project. Today's veterans need all the support they can get.
 
But what if you're not shooting at bullseye targets? I shoot targets mostly but I like to shoot other things as well.

I like for my iron sights to be sighted in right where I want the bullet to hit, at point of impact.
 
Last edited:
That type of adjustment usually sets the point of impact to be immediately above the center of the front sight--the bullet will hit on the target (at some pre-determined range) with the bullet hole "resting" on top of the front sight.

Your precision won't be as good on a bullseye target because the POA=POI hold forces you center the sight (in terms of elevation) on the bullseye but you won't be able to see the bottom half of the bullseye to determine if you're really centered.

For hunting, plinking or shooting irregularly shaped targets, that's a good setup.
 
I recently attended a high power class. Took my Garand & we shot 200 yds with iron sights from standing, sitting & prone positions. Slow fire & rapid fire stages 1 thru 3. The instructor I had was excellent. One of the tips he shared with me is this:

Get in shooting position with an EMPTY chamber, safety ON.
Close the bolt.
Sight your target (front sight), 6:00 hold, safety off.
Close your eyes & DRY fire.
Open your eyes, where is your front sight? (mine was low left)
Shift your body as needed & repeat the above process, it DOES make a difference!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top