How to know what powder is used in a manufactured cartridge

G

Gawp

New member
Hi,

I own a silenced Marlin 336 XLR .30-30 Win which I shoot with subsonic ammo (Sologne Klassic Subsonic .30-30 Win 170 gr).

The problem is, I live in France and here there is only one manufacturer (Sologne) making and selling this ammo (and they sell it to resellers only). Because of this, it is sometimes hard to find these ammunitions and it is EXPENSIVE: 70€ (75$) for a box of 20.

If I was handloading/reloading, I could easily divide the cost by 2 or even 3.

I already know the bullet they use (Hornady Interlock FP 170 gr). I can know how much powder they use by opening a bullet and weighting the powder.

The only thing I need to know is the type of powder they use. Do you have any tip on how to identify the type of powder used in a cartridge?

Thanks!
 
You cannot determine what specific powder is being used by observation. You can only get an idea. But it may be a powder not available to the public. The suggestion of Trail Boss is a good one. Quickload indicates that about 75% case fill will give just about 340 m/s. In any case, you will have to work up a load over a chronograph. Good luck.
 
Hey guys! Thanks for the answers.

Here in France the powders we have are the brands Vectan, VIHTAVUORI and Reload Swiss. We do not have the Trail Boss for example.

I looked in all the manuals of these powders, and none of them show subsonic loads. So it seems I will have to start with a "normal" load and decrease the load until I get a working subsonic load?
 
Trail Boss does appear to be the best way to go. However, checking Lyman's loading manual--which often has cowboy lead cast loads listed--it looks like you can "get your foot in the door" with Unique which I believe Vitvouri N330 is an equivalent of. I have not personally tested this though. I'm also not sure how the silencer changes the velocity on a 336.
 
Gawp said:
We do not have the Trail Boss for example.
Click to expand...

I’m sorry, we are mostly US based reloaders. Do those powder makers have load data for the 30-30? I would bet they do....can you post links to the load data on their web sites.

Also, why would you want an exact match for that factory ammo?

Here is VITHAVOURI....LINK

Vectan....LINK

Reload-Swiss....LINK

Nothing listed subsonic.....hmmm

I would call Brownell’s...link
 
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Reichenberg lists a 200 grain subsonic bullet. Bigger = slower. It might be easier to develop a load for this bullet. Check their website. Might have load data.
 
Tin Star may be a bit fast. Burn rate between N320 and N330. I'm going to GUESS that
a powder toward the slow end of pistol/fast end of rifle might be better? I would start
(very cautiously) with powders in the VihtaVuori N110-N130 range. As Jim said, it's
uncharted territory.
 
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.


A lot of the U.S./Australian powders, Trail Boss among them, are banned in Europe because they consider one of the constituent chemicals to be carcinogenic, while our authorities do not. So he won't be getting any Trail Boss.


Gawp,

Since you are only using European powders, I suggest you download a copy of Gordon's Reloading Tool. That software gets its powder information directly from the manufacturers, so you should be able to make a good enough model to get to a starting load using that software. I tried it a for a 24" barrel (610 mm) and it seems to think between 7.5 and 8 grains (0.486 g to 0.518 g) of N32C will produce the velocity you want. QuickLOAD disagrees and thinks you may need to go as low as 7 grains (0.454 g). Pressures are at about half of 30-30 maximum.

Because of ignition concerns with low case fill (less than 50% in this instance), you may want to place a small tuft of polyester pillow ticking over the powder to hold it back against the flash hole in the bottom of the case for better velocity consistency. However, this is optional, as this charge is not one where you have to worry about low charges causing pressure spikes. it doesn't have enough energy to cause that problem even if it all lights up truly simultaneously.
 
Thanks everyone! To answer all the questions:
* I can't use Trail Boss powder (not available in France)
* I won't hunt with these cartridges, only target shooting
* I do have access to a chronograph

@Unclenick thanks for the info, I didn't know WHY Trail Boss wasn't available in France.

Thank you very much for telling me about Gordon's Reloading Tool, I didn't know about it! I downloaded it and it's pretty nice! However it's lacking Vectan powders for now.

However, this is optional, as this charge is not one where you have to worry about low charges causing pressure spikes. it doesn't have enough energy to cause that problem even if it all lights up truly simultaneously.
Click to expand...
Can you explain me how you deduced that?

Thanks!
 
The most common concern with low charges in a large space is that the powder will lay spread out along the bottom of the case, allowing the primer to ignite that whole surface at once. The question then becomes, if the powder did burn all at once and before the bullet moved, would that produce enough pressure to damage the gun?

I use QuickLOAD, but you can do this in Gordon's Reloading Tool, too. I just simply increased the bullet weight and start pressure to the maximums the program allows, which effectively causes the software to model complete burning of the powder and reaching peak pressure in the chamber with essentially no bullet movement by the time the pressure peak is reached. If the resulting pressure number is still under a safe peak pressure limit, it means the powder can't produce enough gas to damage the gun even if it all burns at once.

The only thing that doesn't cover is detonation. From what I've seen of reported instances that appear credible, they seem to happen when case fill is really small and under 20%. There are theories about why it can happen and why it isn't routinely replicable in the laboratory—it takes the stars all lining up just right and producing failed initial ignition that fuses the powder into a lump that can carry the ignition shockwave before detonation is initiated, and even then, having something burning so as to do that initiating while the rest of the powder is fusing is very hard to arrange for. But we are above 20% charge here. If it were below 20%, I would still recommend holding the powder back against the flash hole.
 
Thank you, it's very interesting!

I have a few more questions if you don't mind?

First:
[...] the powder will lay spread out along the bottom of the case, allowing the primer to ignite that whole surface at once.
Click to expand...
Why would it allow the primer to ignite everything at once in this case while when there is more powder it wouldn't? Because there is more oxygen (when there is less powder) or something like that?

Second question:
just simply increased the bullet weight and start pressure to the maximums the program allows
Click to expand...
I understand why you'd want to increase the bullet weight (so there is not enough pressure to push the bullet forward), but why increase the "start pressure"? What is this "start pressure" exactly?
 
Gawp,

The problem happens when laying the cartridge axis horizontal and having the powder lie horizontally. If the loading density (amount of empty space under the case) is low enough, it leaves the flash hole uncovered and exposed to the large, case--length powder surface area laying before it. Because the primer throws out a shower of sparks, it can start burning over that whole exposed powder surface area instead of just a the bottom end of the powder column, increasing the net effective burn rate and making pressure fast enough to peak before the bullet has moved much, which raises it. Conversely, if all the powder goes forward in the case and as far away from the flash hole as it can get, pressure can prove to be unexpectedly low. The combined effect is a lot of pressure swing and very unreliable performance. Dr. Lloyd Brownell documented the issue in his 1965 study of pressures done for DuPont at the U. of Michigan. Go to pages 53 and 54 (figures 21 and 22) to see how, starting at about 30 grains of IMR3031 and below, the pressure spread gets fairly wide. This problem begins in the range of 60% loading density (fill of the space under the bullet) and peaks at about 40% fill. In an article for Handloader, Brownell commented that while these graphed pressures don't look scary, they actually have a statistical distribution that indicates pressure can get very high on rare occasions. He said his lab had measured a doubling of normal pressures resulting a few times. This problem is why a minimum of 70% loading density is a commonly recommended value.

Smaller fills are OK when the powder is fast to begin with because the charge weight will be one that is safe to have peak quickly anyway.

Start pressure in QuickLOAD is the pressure at which the bullet starts moving. I could have raised that alone, but the software doesn’t allow a value high enough to achieve a full stop of the bullet. Entry limits are why I used both start pressure and bullet weight to slow the bullet down.
 
Unclenick, thank you so much! It's really well explained and is helping me a lot!

I ordered a french magazine from 1998 (it's called "Cibles", i.e. "Targets" in french) about reloading. I just received it and went straight to the page about .30-30 Win!

Here's a screenshot of the reloading data for .30-30 Win:
6qFEL8s.jpg


Translation:
Load 1:
* Test firearm: Winchester 94 carbine
* Projectile: Winchester N° 3015 PF
* Diameter: 7,82mm
* Seating/sinking: 9,7mm
* Case: Winchester
* CIP Pressure: 2800 bars
* Barrel length: 508mm
* Weight: 9,72g (150 gr)
* Crimping: light
* Primer: Winchester LR
* Kinetic energy for 317 m/s: 488j
* Amount of movement: 3,08kg per m/s
* Powder: Vectan Ba10 (0,46g for 308 m/s on average) or Vectan A1 (0,48g for 317 m/s on average)

Load 2:
* Test firearm: Winchester 94 carbine
* Projectile: Hornady FP N° 3060
* Diameter: 7,82mm
* Seating/sinking: 10,7mm
* Case: Winchester
* CIP Pressure: 2800 bars
* Barrel length: 508mm
* Weight: 11g (170 gr)
* Crimping: light
* Primer: Winchester LR
* Kinetic energy for 325 m/s: 581j
* Amount of movement: 3,57kg per m/s
* Powder: Vectan Ba10 (0,48g for 317 m/s on average) or Vectan A1 (0,50g for 325 m/s on average)

There is also a disclaimer on another page:
VERY IMPORTANT: high burn rate powders can result in high pressure spikes, even with a very small increase of the quantity of powder. For example, for the 30-30 with the bullet of 170 gr, 0,54g of Vectan Ba10 gives a higher pressure than the CIP pressure (2800 bars).

The guy who wrote this article in the magazine is René Malfatti, he's written several books about reloading, so I guess he's somewhat trustworthy.

Since this data is from 1998, can I trust it? Is the Vectan powder from 1998 the same as the Vectan powder of 2020?

Any tips/recommendation before I try this load?

Unclenick, could you try the loads above in QuickLOAD with a 24" barrel? Gordon's Reloading Tool is missing most of the Vectan powders so I couldn't try.
 
I have some exciting news!

I disassembled a bullet with an inertia bullet puller and... I'm pretty sure I found out the truth!

The powder in the case looks exactly like the powder suggested in the magazine I posted above: Vectan Ba10. There is about 0,43 g (6,64 gr) of this powder, which makes sense given the magazine suggests about 0,48 g.

7e64c4d2a4a242251ffdaa790b21fa01_L.jpg


I don't need the info anymore because I'm now using Vihtavuori N32C powder for my subsonic load, but still, good to know!
 
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