How to engage someone in body armor?
- Thread starter freenokia
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This situation made me think about what might have been had I been there, armed, and been fortunate enough to avoid being a casualty early on in the attack.
I usually carry my DW CBOB 10mm auto with 200 XTP @1200fps. If I was still healthy after the attack started, then I would have to assess the shooter. From reports it was obvious he was wearing body armor, a ballistic helmet, groin protection, leg protection, arm protection and throat protection; as well as a gas mask. Assuming the shooter was wearing at least Level IIIA armor, this would leave a head shot at the solution to stopping the deadly threat. Shooting to center of mass would only draw unwanted attention from a shooter with a AR-15, likely making me a priority target and get me killed.
Negatives for armed response success:
1) If the canisters releases tear gas, that would likely reduce my ability to see and breath, reducing the ability to shoot accurately and quickly.
2) The stress of being in a deadly situation would likely reduce my ability to shoot accurately.
3) The panicked theater patrons' efforts to escape would likely interfere with my ability to have a clear lane to shoot, and I would likely be physically jostled or worse while attempting to get a sight picture.
My conclusion is that had I been there, survived the initial attack, tried to engage the shooter, that I'd most likely have been shot while attempting to make a head shot. Only if I had somehow found myself in a position where I was close to the shooter, uninjured, unhampered by fleeing patrons and unseen by the shooter, might I have been able to make a head shot or if from behind a neck shot.
All in all a very low probability of a good/survivable outcome for an armed response in my guesstimation. (Ya a made up word.)
This shooter planned and setup as many factors in his favor for his survival. The only trade-off that might have been to the shooter's detriment was the gas mask, as it might have limited his vision if an armed response had occurred.
I usually carry my DW CBOB 10mm auto with 200 XTP @1200fps. If I was still healthy after the attack started, then I would have to assess the shooter. From reports it was obvious he was wearing body armor, a ballistic helmet, groin protection, leg protection, arm protection and throat protection; as well as a gas mask. Assuming the shooter was wearing at least Level IIIA armor, this would leave a head shot at the solution to stopping the deadly threat. Shooting to center of mass would only draw unwanted attention from a shooter with a AR-15, likely making me a priority target and get me killed.
Negatives for armed response success:
1) If the canisters releases tear gas, that would likely reduce my ability to see and breath, reducing the ability to shoot accurately and quickly.
2) The stress of being in a deadly situation would likely reduce my ability to shoot accurately.
3) The panicked theater patrons' efforts to escape would likely interfere with my ability to have a clear lane to shoot, and I would likely be physically jostled or worse while attempting to get a sight picture.
My conclusion is that had I been there, survived the initial attack, tried to engage the shooter, that I'd most likely have been shot while attempting to make a head shot. Only if I had somehow found myself in a position where I was close to the shooter, uninjured, unhampered by fleeing patrons and unseen by the shooter, might I have been able to make a head shot or if from behind a neck shot.
All in all a very low probability of a good/survivable outcome for an armed response in my guesstimation. (Ya a made up word.)
This shooter planned and setup as many factors in his favor for his survival. The only trade-off that might have been to the shooter's detriment was the gas mask, as it might have limited his vision if an armed response had occurred.
armed_librarian
New member
A really good point. Like someone else mentioned, this is a good reason to consider carrying extra mags.
It is also a good reason to train at further distances, even with a pistol. I have talked to people that are adamant on the idea that it is worthless to train past 7 yards (usual range of a self-defense shooting I guess). I currently train at at least 15 yards, thinking about extending that.
Finally. Unfortunately, this shooting makes me, and most likely plenty others, realize something. That on a daily basis, I can never truly be prepared for the worst case scenario. A humbling thought.
freebird72
New member
I went to about 4 gun stores today, and everyone was talking about this attack. To no surprise, everyone said they could have taken him down with one well placed shot to the head.
Even though I explained to them the amount of protection he had, the AR rifle, the shotgun, the two Glocks, and the gas he used, everyone still said the could have taken him down no problem.
This may just be me, and I have never had training like some of the fellows at the stores had, but I refuse to believe this guy could have been taken down with only one shot to the head. This guy was, for all intents and purposes, bulletproof and he had almost ever advantage in his favor.
I just do not see how one guy with a pistol, be it .380 or .500 magnum, could have done much to this guy before they themselves were taken down by one of his many guns.
Even though I explained to them the amount of protection he had, the AR rifle, the shotgun, the two Glocks, and the gas he used, everyone still said the could have taken him down no problem. This may just be me, and I have never had training like some of the fellows at the stores had, but I refuse to believe this guy could have been taken down with only one shot to the head. This guy was, for all intents and purposes, bulletproof and he had almost ever advantage in his favor.
I just do not see how one guy with a pistol, be it .380 or .500 magnum, could have done much to this guy before they themselves were taken down by one of his many guns.
Dragline45
New member
Everything you mentioned went through my head as well and I came to the similar conclusion that best bet for survival would be to lay low. Chances of going toe to toe with a heavily armed and armored man vs a citizen carrying their CCW pistol with no body armor and surviving is pretty slim. That's not even considering he wont be hampered by the tear gas flowing through the theater.
Against an armored psychopath in that environment, I'd say finding cover would be my first priority. Or getting my family to cover if they were with me. But, over all, it's kind of one of those things that you can't really plan for.
If I did find myself in a similar situation - using the tools I'd have on hand - I would think that lots of rounds directed at the neck region (COM high) would be as effective as anything. Hits to the chest are still going to hurt, and the neck/head are going to be less impact resistant even if you don't find seam.
If I did find myself in a similar situation - using the tools I'd have on hand - I would think that lots of rounds directed at the neck region (COM high) would be as effective as anything. Hits to the chest are still going to hurt, and the neck/head are going to be less impact resistant even if you don't find seam.
just because a vest stops a bullet, doesn't mean it won't stop the shooter. Broken ribs, etc. I would presume he was wearing III-A or II, something of the type available at bulletproofme.com
Further, a shot to the legs can be just as effective. How long will you retain consciousness with an open femoral artery ? Not long I'd presume
forget the five seven, let's talk about 7.62x25
Further, a shot to the legs can be just as effective. How long will you retain consciousness with an open femoral artery ? Not long I'd presume
forget the five seven, let's talk about 7.62x25
I actually do practice to shoot below the helmet and above the throat protector and can do it quickly at close range (15 yards). Some guys told me that if I had been there the guy wouldn't have stood a chance. They were surprised when I told them it would've been iffy at best. This is with a German Made SIG P228. I was mistaken when I said I missed one. It caught the edge then hit the berm behind the target.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-HH1wys70I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-HH1wys70I
I would absolutey still do the 2 chest, 1 head and repeat until I ran out of ammo. The odds of the person still standing unfluttered by a barrage of bullets hitting him, even with armor on, is still going to more than likely knock him on his rear end. From there you can improvise, or run away....
FN 5.7
While I don't claim to be an expert by any means I can speak about what I have expirienced first hand. I have taken a couple training classes at a local range. The classes are taught by certified police instructors. In one of these classes we used a wood stand to hold a standard Police isssue vest.(standard for this area at least)I don't know it's rating but do know that it had no trauma plates in it. The instructor then proceeded to shoot the vest with a .22 thru 12 guage. It effectively stopped every round EXCEPT the Five-Seven and .223. The 5,7 round was a basic green tip 5.7x28 from FN. The 5.7 burned through both sides of the vest like it wasn't there. The vest stopped the 12 guage but I sure wouldn't want to have been wearing it when that slug hit!! OUCH!
p.s. It was a standard off the shelf box of 5.7's that they sold in their store.
While I don't claim to be an expert by any means I can speak about what I have expirienced first hand. I have taken a couple training classes at a local range. The classes are taught by certified police instructors. In one of these classes we used a wood stand to hold a standard Police isssue vest.(standard for this area at least)I don't know it's rating but do know that it had no trauma plates in it. The instructor then proceeded to shoot the vest with a .22 thru 12 guage. It effectively stopped every round EXCEPT the Five-Seven and .223. The 5,7 round was a basic green tip 5.7x28 from FN. The 5.7 burned through both sides of the vest like it wasn't there. The vest stopped the 12 guage but I sure wouldn't want to have been wearing it when that slug hit!! OUCH!
p.s. It was a standard off the shelf box of 5.7's that they sold in their store.
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Glenn E. Meyer
New member
If you recall the North Hollywood shootout, you might reconsider your plan to knock them on their butts. They absorbed about 50 hits.
Also, while you are standing up and shooting repeated ineffective shots - guess who kills YOU.
Today, I shot with national level champions and skilled veteran military. They said the best is to hunker down, hit the deck - if he comes close to you, perhaps shoot.
However, all these - I will shoot a stream of 2 COM and a head shot till I run out of ammo, is just posturing.
Yep, today - I made two very tight double tap head shots on two targets close in to a no-shoot. This was in daylight, behind cover (match coveer). Some people nailed the no-shoot. It wasn't dark, tear gased and with moving people, enemy - all over.
Don't posture.
PS - police 5.7 is not civilian 5.7
Also, while you are standing up and shooting repeated ineffective shots - guess who kills YOU.
Today, I shot with national level champions and skilled veteran military. They said the best is to hunker down, hit the deck - if he comes close to you, perhaps shoot.
However, all these - I will shoot a stream of 2 COM and a head shot till I run out of ammo, is just posturing.
Yep, today - I made two very tight double tap head shots on two targets close in to a no-shoot. This was in daylight, behind cover (match coveer). Some people nailed the no-shoot. It wasn't dark, tear gased and with moving people, enemy - all over.
Don't posture.
PS - police 5.7 is not civilian 5.7
misnomerga
New member
Exactly as Glenn aptly put it! Ideal conditions, no lead flying back at you, in daylight, no acrid unidentified smoke affecting your vision. How many folks include night training in their repertoire especially under those conditions. I confess I do not. Rolling out of bed at night does not even come close. I might agree with the poster who stated "hunker down" and if he provides you with a clear opportunity to exploit his weakness then perhaps take a chance. Even then it would be an iffy proposition at best. I am not ashamed to say I would more than likely agree with the other poster who said it would be a strong consideration to crawl out on my stomach like the other folks who survived. Think about the facts folks, he is protected in all the areas we normally look to go at. I have yet to see any information on how extensive a helmet he was wearing. If he was as thorough as he seemed I am willing to bet he took shots to his ears off the table. The probability of finding the soft spot between his throat protection and his helmet would be remote. He was wearing tactical boots so the most popular carry round, 9mm, might or might not penetrate. .380, .32, and .22 have almost no chance at all. This guy was a walking tank, in the dark. From all accounts it was a nightmarish situation.
freebird72
New member
Is it illegal to wear/own the kind of protection the man had? If not, maybe we should sell a few guns and buy some body armor of our own.
misnomerga
New member
From Fox News web page
Oates said the gunman wore a gas mask and a ballistic helmet and vest, as well as leg, groin and throat protectors. He said he bought four guns from local gun shops in the last 60 days and 6,000 rounds of ammunition, including a drum magazine that could fire 50 to 60 rounds per minute.
"My understanding is that all the weapons that he possessed, he possessed legally. And all the clips that he possessed, he possessed legally. And all the ammunition that he possessed, he possessed legally," Oates said at a press conference Friday.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/2...-delay-probe-suspect-apartment/#ixzz21JDdMn5b
My guess is he probably got the clothing legally as well.
Oates said the gunman wore a gas mask and a ballistic helmet and vest, as well as leg, groin and throat protectors. He said he bought four guns from local gun shops in the last 60 days and 6,000 rounds of ammunition, including a drum magazine that could fire 50 to 60 rounds per minute.
"My understanding is that all the weapons that he possessed, he possessed legally. And all the clips that he possessed, he possessed legally. And all the ammunition that he possessed, he possessed legally," Oates said at a press conference Friday.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/2...-delay-probe-suspect-apartment/#ixzz21JDdMn5b
My guess is he probably got the clothing legally as well.
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