How to bump back the shoulder
- Thread starter RedSkyFarm
- Start date
- Status
I suggested scribing a line around the case at the case body/shoulder juncture. The scribed line will become an artifact; I have formed 30/06 blanks into 8MM57 cases, when forming I could not get rid of the artifacts from the 30/06 blank cases. It means nothing to anyone on this forum but there was a reloader on ebay selling 8mm57 cases that were formed from 30/06 blanks.
Missing something? Yes; I insist it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has no case body support because without case body support the case will collapse.
How much will the case collapse? I have formed bellows below the shoulder to the point the case took on the appearance of an accordion. And there is another tie-in; The seating die does not have case body support, if the reloader applies too much crimp the case will start to bulge at the case body/shoulder juncture.
And then there is the bully factor, many reloadrs on the Internet insist other reloaders agree with them. Those are the ones I can not get them to remove their hands from the keyboard when it comes to scribing lines etc.
Missing something else; when reloaders do their memory work they insist the firing pin hits the primer and drives the case, powder and bullet to the front of the chamber before the primer is busted. At one time I asked a lot of questions of the shooter/reloader that made up that cute little saying. He never responded; finally I asked him if he ever considered if there was a remote chance he could have left out a few sequences or if there was a chance there were other possibilities. After that I had to assume no one knew or they did not afford themselves the luxury of disagreeing.
And then there are those that "get so confused" like the time I chambered 8mm57 ammo in one of my 8mm/06 chambers. I pulled the trigger; if there was any truth to the cute little saying I should have experienced case head separation because the difference on length of my chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face and shoulder of the case to the case head was .127". According to the cute saying I should have had case head separation, instead I ejected a case with a long case body and a very short neck.
"So confused?" Had the case shoulder been driven forward and made contact with the shoulder of the chamber the length of the neck would not haver changed when the round was fired. The fact the neck shortened proved the shoulder did not move (by much); 'missing something' the shoulder of the 8mm57 did not move, the shoulder behind the short neck was a new shoulder.
F. Guffey
Don Fischer
New member
Bump the shoulder is a bad word. You just bump it and the case still won't load in the rifle. You have to move the shoulder, just move the shoulder enough to let the round chamber. You can move it enough that you'll still be able to feel it when you close the bolt and that will work. I move it enough so I don't feel the rub any more.
How to do it? Easy. Losen the lock ring on the FL die and move it back just a bit. Now screw the die all the way down till it touch's the shell holder. Next, back the die out a couple turns, the shoulder should not touch then. Tighten down the lock ring just finger tight and lube and run a case into the die. Take that case and put it in your rifle and try to close the bolt, it should not close. Next losen the lock ring again and turn it down about a quarter turn and re tighten the lock ring. Run the case in again and then try it in the gun. Keep doing that till the case goes in smoothly. If you want to feel it rub, your call. I like then to go in smoothly. Once you get it there, tighten the lock ring well and lock it right there. Dedicate it to than rifle and you'll never have to neck size again, you'll be FL sizing the case's to fit that chamber. Called partial sizing. I've recently started trying a collet die to neck size my 243. Don't know yet how long it will take to have to FL resize or even it I'll have to, haven't done enough yet. Advantage if I don't have to FL size is that I won't drag the neck over an expander plug anymore. That's where most case stretch come's from. Want to see it? Before running a case into the FL die with the expander plug , measure it. Run the case through and then measure it again, the neck will expand more than when fired
How to do it? Easy. Losen the lock ring on the FL die and move it back just a bit. Now screw the die all the way down till it touch's the shell holder. Next, back the die out a couple turns, the shoulder should not touch then. Tighten down the lock ring just finger tight and lube and run a case into the die. Take that case and put it in your rifle and try to close the bolt, it should not close. Next losen the lock ring again and turn it down about a quarter turn and re tighten the lock ring. Run the case in again and then try it in the gun. Keep doing that till the case goes in smoothly. If you want to feel it rub, your call. I like then to go in smoothly. Once you get it there, tighten the lock ring well and lock it right there. Dedicate it to than rifle and you'll never have to neck size again, you'll be FL sizing the case's to fit that chamber. Called partial sizing. I've recently started trying a collet die to neck size my 243. Don't know yet how long it will take to have to FL resize or even it I'll have to, haven't done enough yet. Advantage if I don't have to FL size is that I won't drag the neck over an expander plug anymore. That's where most case stretch come's from. Want to see it? Before running a case into the FL die with the expander plug , measure it. Run the case through and then measure it again, the neck will expand more than when fired
My take as well and I am a technician for crying out loud. I eat and breath miking things, control statements, engines, bearing etc. and ad nausea.
HBC had it right. Unless we are engineers designing chambers, does it matter we call a crawler tractor a Cat or a Dozer? (keep in mind when I was a kid, Cat was the ONLY crawler you saw up here! - I got a test questions right one time because I KNEW the only oil company up here in that era the picture was from was Chevron.
I put in a complaint. I was asked why I was unhappy, I got the answer right.
NO ONE ELSE CAN GET IT RIGHT BECAUSE YOU CAN'T READ THE FLIPPING LOGO ON THE TANK!
How well did MSA go over? Yea, its still and AR and it stands for Assault Rifle.
I can flip it around and say a case measure head space. It tells you if for that case there is too much or too little.
Disagree with that and I can screw the barrel out on my Savage and change it so it does work (easily, any rifle it would do so with, front sight can be an issue!)
Ergo, the head space is longer than this case (loose) or its shorter (dang bolt won't close) probably could even come up with a scale of how tight to how many thousandths.
Or to ask another way. What does it affect in any concrete way to call it head space?
A case is a pretty close mirror image to the chamber is it not? In this day and age we can measure it to tolerances far closer than in days gone by. In days gone by it would have been good.
HBC had it right. Unless we are engineers designing chambers, does it matter we call a crawler tractor a Cat or a Dozer? (keep in mind when I was a kid, Cat was the ONLY crawler you saw up here! - I got a test questions right one time because I KNEW the only oil company up here in that era the picture was from was Chevron.
I put in a complaint. I was asked why I was unhappy, I got the answer right.
NO ONE ELSE CAN GET IT RIGHT BECAUSE YOU CAN'T READ THE FLIPPING LOGO ON THE TANK!
How well did MSA go over? Yea, its still and AR and it stands for Assault Rifle.
I can flip it around and say a case measure head space. It tells you if for that case there is too much or too little.
Disagree with that and I can screw the barrel out on my Savage and change it so it does work (easily, any rifle it would do so with, front sight can be an issue!)
Ergo, the head space is longer than this case (loose) or its shorter (dang bolt won't close) probably could even come up with a scale of how tight to how many thousandths.
Or to ask another way. What does it affect in any concrete way to call it head space?
A case is a pretty close mirror image to the chamber is it not? In this day and age we can measure it to tolerances far closer than in days gone by. In days gone by it would have been good.
That is one way to kill your brass quickly! (aside from being an incredibly coarse and crude adjustment).
A quarter turn moves a die 0.018" - that's eighteen thousandths!
As it happens I've just sat down from a bit of sizing. The chamber measures 1.631"
The brass, all 1100 cases, measures between 1.6285" and 1.6295" CHSD* - in other words between 0.0015" and 0.0025" under chamber size. This requires *much* finer adjustment than quarter turns. See Unclenick's die graduation rings:
[*CHSD = Case Head to Shoulder Datum]
Certainly agree with that, quarter turns are far too course.
I do have Lee O locking rings and those are easy to adjust so that is how I do it. I have a 1 1/8 inch Combination wrench hanging off a nail above my head (to adjust the CHDS).
CHSD is good acronym. It can be any point (ala my custom made tool) and then moving shoulder back (which I know I am not allowed to do but I have run with scissors, spit in the wind, tried to fight city hall etc)
I do have Lee O locking rings and those are easy to adjust so that is how I do it. I have a 1 1/8 inch Combination wrench hanging off a nail above my head (to adjust the CHDS).
CHSD is good acronym. It can be any point (ala my custom made tool) and then moving shoulder back (which I know I am not allowed to do but I have run with scissors, spit in the wind, tried to fight city hall etc)
There in lies the issue right . Except it's not so much guys as it is a person . The guys are pretty much saying the same thing just in many different ways . While one person elected him self the tyrannical speech lord and insist on compelled speech regardless if "our" society as a whole has chosen and excepts different words to use .
LOL
I guess we have COAL, CBTO, so why not continue the theme with CHSD.
Actually, it's no good. The 'CH' could be confused with 'Case H**dsp*ce'!
..
I predict it doesn't matter what we decide we are a half a dozen or so regulars on a internet forum. Reloaders all over the world will still be bumping the shoulder and measuring the shoulder with a comparitor and calling it headspace. They will then shoot those cartridges not giving a rats rectum what we call it on this forum
My life got a lot calmer when I decided to ignore jackasses and cable news....but I repeat myself. Doc may be taking me off BP meds soon if I stick to it
My life got a lot calmer when I decided to ignore jackasses and cable news....but I repeat myself. Doc may be taking me off BP meds soon if I stick to it
correct in what context? 1913 US Army Armorer school manual lingo ? I can call something a half inch or .50 inches and be saying the same thing or say plane and be talking about at least three entirely different concepts of thought depending on the context. If you are talking to a roughneck or a doctor or a sailor or a gunsmith or a psychiatrist referring to the "head" will mean different things
Last edited:
Just because he's correct doesn't make him right in what he's doing . He does not say "I'm going to use the "correct" term and I'll respect you and your term" . He says I'm right and everyone else is wrong , literally . How many times have we all read "I'm the only one" when that is simply not true period .
Correction : He is the only one derailing threads for no appreciable reason .
Correction : He is the only one derailing threads for no appreciable reason .
That is the English language. For someone that does not know it, it is one of the most difficult to learn.
As far as in what context, I know of only one context in regard to handloading or firearms related stuff.
Look at me for instance: the only recipes I have are for buttermilk pancakes, sausage, butter beans, and so on.
I have tons of load data that all started in the late 60s when I started making notebooks with all the different loads that I developed for my firearms.
In this thread, the OP asked about "bumping" shoulders. No one bumps shoulders, they form new shoulders.
guess they need to rename shoulder bump dies to shoulder forming dies then
https://www.forsterproducts.com/pro...ing/bushing-bump-neck-bench-rest-sizing-dies/
exaggerated formatting supplied by moi
seriously I am looking at Tony Boyers book Rifle Accuarcy book right now page 114 where is discussing setting the shoulder back with a shoulder bump die. That's all the verification I need to use the term. Who am I supposed top believe, one of the top precision shooters and reloaders of all time or some random guy on a forum.....not exactly a hard decision there
Thank you, and that was their biggest fear; I have never asked them what they were afraid of. It has always been about more than being too lazy to remove their hands from the keyboard.
I have little respect for those that have grown up without learning to keep their hands to themselves.
F. Guffey
- Status