How Times Have Changed!

R

roy reali

New member
Over the weekend I watched the second half of the movie, Tora, Tora, Tora! I like war related movies. As I was watching this movie I could not help but compare the Pearl Harbor attack and the 9-11 attack.

I thought about the similarities between the two events. I also thought about the differences. One difference that came to mind is how differently Hollywood celebrities treated each one. I imagined the celebrities of 1941 acting like those of today.

The Japanese attack Pearl Harbor and President Roosevelt declares war on Japan. Immediately, John Wayne catcher a flight to Tokyo. He gets on the radio there and apologizes to the people of Japan. He tells them that by setting up such a vulnerable target, we enticed the attack and that the U.S. is to blame.

Then you would have Ginger Rogers get on American radio. She would call FDR the worse president in history. How could he declare war on innocent people. She plans on moving to Canada to protest.

Bob Hope would have come up with a new routine. He would have put together a series of jokes lambasting our armed forces. Even FDR's disabilities would have been fair game.

There are many differences between what happened in 1941 as compared to what in 2001. That difference is most obvious is how the folks in Hollywood have responded. I guess war just doesn't have the same meaning anymore.
 
Another change would have been that footage of the Pearl Harbor attack would have been put on a shelf. The American public would have been deemed too sensitive to view such a disturbing act, so the meida would have taken it upon themselves to protect ordinary citizens. Why remind anyone of an attack on American soil?
 
How's this for a difference, after being told the country was attacked FDR would have stood his debilitated ass up from his wheelchair and actually done something rather than 'projecting calm' for the little schoolchildren and flipping through a G.D. book. Oh yeah, Germany and Japan had a treaty, thereby making the case for the invasion of Europe AND the Pacific, as opposed to Afhganistan and Iraq, which have no treaties. (or wmd's but we're not talking about that...ever. After all, it's not why we went over there or anything)
 
Honor

Gotta give the Japanese credit for their sense of honor. When they committed a sneak attack against the USA, they chose a military base, and used their own airplanes, clearly marked with their national insignia!
 
Imagine Pearl Harbor was attacked by people being harbored by Japan, but we subdued Japan in a few months. Then FDR decided to invade Korea, and that took 3 years.


Okay, now continue with your little comparison.
 
European Theater

The war against Japan was pretty clear cut. They attacked us. The war against Germany was more problematic. Germany did not attack us. We had no knowledge of their concentration camps. In fact, many American wanted to side with them.

There were also some Americans that wanted to engage Germany sooner. Could you imagine how may lives would have been saved if these people had been listened to?

It is amazing how rarely we ever do see footage of the 9/11 attacks. It is as though some folks want us to forget what happened on that day. However, any film that shows a famous person putting down the U.S., or any film showing our mistreatment of prisoners is replayed over and over.
 
I'm sure Germany's declaration of war on us probably had something to do with us declaring war on them.:rolleyes:



I think I've seen the 9/11 attack footage plenty in the months after and on every anniversary since. Do you really forget something if you aren't shown a film of it daily?
 
Re:handy

I think that a constant reminder of what happened on 9/11 would be a good way to balance the debate over the current situation. There are those that want to minimize that event or even pretend that it didn't happen. They want to have every one believe that this war on terrorism just happened out of the blue.

Imagine how our memories of World war Two would be like if the only films of Europe showed cities that were leveled by our bombers. However, we are also shown footage of the Nazi death camps. That completes the picture.

With current events, we are only being given part of the picture.
 
They want to have every one believe that this war on terrorism just happened out of the blue.
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On the other side of the fence there are those who would claim that the attack was completely out of the blue and utterly unprovoked. Both sides are wrong.

On the original point, who gives a damn what celebrities think? Osama doesn't. Saddam doesn't. I sure don't care what John Wayne thought about WW2 or what Sean Penn thinks about this one.

Now I don't know what you're watching but I see plenty of 9/11 video footage - certainly more often than I see the prisoner abuse images, which deserve just as much attention as any other crime commited.
 
I'm sure Germany's declaration of war on us probably had something to do with us declaring war on them.
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Let me ask you a question:

If Germany had never declared war on the United States, would you consider it proper to attack Germany in, say, 1943?

(Yes, by 1943 the allies possessed clear knowledge of the concentration camps.)
 
Re:redworm

When Japan attacked us they assumed something about the American people. They saw a nation of many races and cultures. They saw folks that did not get along with each other. They saw a divided nation.

They looked at themselves and saw one race, one culture. Everyone pretty much got along. They were almost like a version of Stat Trek's Borgs.

The Japanese leadership thought that if they attacked, our internal divisions would be to their advantage. They assumed the American people would not unite in a fight. That was one of their errors. Fortunately for us, they were wrong.

Now another enemy is after us. However, this time we are a nation divided. You have expresidents and people of high profile calling our leaders traitors and terrorists. How do you think this looks to our enemies?

If you think our enemies do not know what is being said, then you probably also believe the whole moon mission was made up.
 
roy, I'm so sick of this whole 'our enemies are listening, better not call any leaders on their B.S." talk. Any enemies of ours have better things to do than watch c-span or access holywood looking for unintentional moral support...Besides, our enemies have the special forces, cruise missles, million dollar bounties, and the collective might of the most powerful nation on earth on their asses, do you honestly believe that they could give a rat's behind whether or not the american people criticize our leaders?? So please, in the name of credible rational arguements and all that's right in the world, please never utter the words 'how does this look to our enemies' again. (Otherwise you surely deserve an asteroid from the heavens to knock you in the head.)


jon stewart did a peice on this, how some terrorist in a cave was musing about how our government has a congress that allows people to criticize the president and how much aid and comfort that it gave them...(those silly check and balances! what will those crazy americans think of next!)
 
Re:nedrecksavant

In the 1930's and the 1940's the Japanese were paying attention to the pulse of the American people. Hence, they took a gamble and attacked us.

They did use the information they gathered about us to convince their masses that an attack against America would succeed. They saw us as a bunch of mutts. They saw themselves as a pure race.

We do have to look at history to understand the present and try to predict the future.

Did you by any chance attend the Howard Dean School of Civil Discourse?
 
Roy, you're the first person I've heard advance the theory that the Japanese thought they could defeat the United States because they thought racial and social divisions would hamper us enough for them to win. I have always been taught that the Japanese attacked because they saw no other way to dominate the Pacific and they believed that a window of opportunity was closing rapidly.

Got any evidence for that point of view?

While you're at it, could you tell me which celebrity went to Afghanistan after the 9/11 attacks and broadcast Al Qaeda propaganda against the U.S.?

That sort of radio propaganda DID happen in WWII, by the way. "Tokyo Rose" broadcast to American troops, but "Lord Haw Haw" broadcast to Americans and British on behalf of the Nazis, and he was a traitorous Briton, not a German.


I find a lot of the statements made by celebrities in the last few years silly and distasteful, but let's not get shrill about it.
 
Roy, I have a newfound respect of you. The howard dean comment was quality. I had to stop and laugh at myself for a littlewhile before becoming composed again. It's just that I've been hearing that whole 'our enemy is listening' line from people who I honestly believe are more concerned with not discussing problems than what mohammad in bfe thinks.

If dissent is the highest form of patriotism then should we not be patriotic so that we can present a unified front to the world? After 9/11 we were as unified as we were after pearl harbor. What went wrong?

Also, though the japs were tuned in to our divisions, I thought that they took their gamble becuase we shut off the gas pump, not because everyone was bickering.

What REAL danger do you suppose lies in discussing what our leaders are doing? Another attack, or social change (however small)?

btw, after seeing what bush & cheney have so expertly done for our nation, are they not treasonous, villainous, profiteering terrorists? (just asking, or does that give aid and comfort to mohommad?)
 
Orig post by nedrecksavant
btw, after seeing what bush & cheney have so expertly done for our nation, are they not treasonous, villainous, profiteering terrorists? (just asking, or does that give aid and comfort to mohommad?)
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Those pack of billygoats played W & Co like a fiddle!
They ought to thank him for furthering their demented cause and providing them with such effective recruitment incentives. Smart Generals and other military notables tried to tell this boob but he was too busy watchin' the the Simpson's:(
What a freaking moron!:eek:

Rimrock
 
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