How powerful is .50 bmg, really?
- Thread starter FALacy
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m.p.driver
New member
It was designed for taking down Zeppelins,balloons and planes,it isn't no .22.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"It was designed for taking down Zeppelins,balloons and planes,it isn't no .22. "
No, no it wasn't.
It was, like many other heavy machine guns of the time, designed primarily as a way of dealing with the new tanks and other mechanized vehicles that were making an appearance on the battlefield.
No, no it wasn't.
It was, like many other heavy machine guns of the time, designed primarily as a way of dealing with the new tanks and other mechanized vehicles that were making an appearance on the battlefield.
One reason Ma Duece was so "feared"...
Is that we put them on everything that could physically carry them. Planes, tanks, trucks, halftracks, scout cars, even jeeps (although a .30 was more common on jeeps).
One huge advantage we had during the war was that our industrial base was secure from attack. Another was its sheer size. Although it took nearly two years, when the US was fully ramped up as the "Arsenal of Democracy" only the Soviets came close to matching our production, and then, only in a few areas (like numbers of tanks), but they could do that because of the support they were getting from us.
When you look at the amount of material we send them as aid, you can see that allowed them to use their own resources for other things. When you are getting a lot of your trucks from someone else, that means those factories can make tanks, for example.
The Germans had some fine engineers (although they did suffer from tunnel vision alot), and a very, very capable industry. However, to balance this, they also had the Nazi regime, which often forced their industry down exactly the wrong road at critical times.
When you consider the size of pre war Germany (several of our states are larger), even looking at the amount of area they controlled at the height of their conquests, versus the size, and production capacity of the Allies, the fact that they kept the issue in doubt for so long is amazing.
Is that we put them on everything that could physically carry them. Planes, tanks, trucks, halftracks, scout cars, even jeeps (although a .30 was more common on jeeps).
One huge advantage we had during the war was that our industrial base was secure from attack. Another was its sheer size. Although it took nearly two years, when the US was fully ramped up as the "Arsenal of Democracy" only the Soviets came close to matching our production, and then, only in a few areas (like numbers of tanks), but they could do that because of the support they were getting from us.
When you look at the amount of material we send them as aid, you can see that allowed them to use their own resources for other things. When you are getting a lot of your trucks from someone else, that means those factories can make tanks, for example.
The Germans had some fine engineers (although they did suffer from tunnel vision alot), and a very, very capable industry. However, to balance this, they also had the Nazi regime, which often forced their industry down exactly the wrong road at critical times.
When you consider the size of pre war Germany (several of our states are larger), even looking at the amount of area they controlled at the height of their conquests, versus the size, and production capacity of the Allies, the fact that they kept the issue in doubt for so long is amazing.
Everyone is scared of artillery.
American artillery was superior to that of any of the other WWII combatants. But that wasn't because the individual guns were superior. I do think the American 155mm was a better gun than any other similar gun. But we could have swapped that for a German 150mm or a Soviet 152mm and American artillery would still have been superior.
It was our ability at communication and our computers.
By the end of the war just about any American on the front with access to a phone or radio could call in accurate fire from dozens if not hundreds of guns.
Americans used mechanical computers that allowed them to be very accurate. without knowing the land and pre-plotting coordinates as the Germans on defense did. Basically they were rolls of paper that adjusted for range, altitude, and all of the other computations needed to put projectiles where they wanted them. All of those calculations had been done in the US by a bunch of human computers.
My point is that when the Germans were afraid of American artillery it wasn't any specific weapon such as the M114 155 mm that they were afraid of.
Not in the same way allied troops feared the German 88mm.
With the M2 machine gun it was that specific weapon that the Germans feared, not how well it was used.
Another weapon the Germans feared was the flying dustbin. The Churchill AVRE tank with the 290mm mortar. German command issued a destroy on sight order for those tanks. German soldiers were less than happy at the thought of 40 pounds or high explosive dropping in their laps.
American artillery was superior to that of any of the other WWII combatants. But that wasn't because the individual guns were superior. I do think the American 155mm was a better gun than any other similar gun. But we could have swapped that for a German 150mm or a Soviet 152mm and American artillery would still have been superior.
It was our ability at communication and our computers.
By the end of the war just about any American on the front with access to a phone or radio could call in accurate fire from dozens if not hundreds of guns.
Americans used mechanical computers that allowed them to be very accurate. without knowing the land and pre-plotting coordinates as the Germans on defense did. Basically they were rolls of paper that adjusted for range, altitude, and all of the other computations needed to put projectiles where they wanted them. All of those calculations had been done in the US by a bunch of human computers.
My point is that when the Germans were afraid of American artillery it wasn't any specific weapon such as the M114 155 mm that they were afraid of.
Not in the same way allied troops feared the German 88mm.
With the M2 machine gun it was that specific weapon that the Germans feared, not how well it was used.
Another weapon the Germans feared was the flying dustbin. The Churchill AVRE tank with the 290mm mortar. German command issued a destroy on sight order for those tanks. German soldiers were less than happy at the thought of 40 pounds or high explosive dropping in their laps.
A friend that I work with spent time in the sand box and is now retired. He told me a story of how impressive HE thought the 50 BMG was.
He was setting on a hill top with a radio man waiting for a bad guy to show up that was selling munitions. They (?) didn’t want him killed (I have no idea why) just scared.
The bad gun showed up and they waited for the buyer to show up. As both got out of their cars they were told over the radio that they were the ones and to scare them.
At over 800 yards using a Barrett he put one round through the side of the car.
The buyer jumped in his car and took off and the seller ended up walking (10 miles +) back from ever he came from.
After several hours my friend went to check out the car and see if anything was left in it.
The car was empty but he noticed the entry and exit hole. He popped the hood and the engine was in pieces.
It was a front wheel drive V6 and it took one whole side off the motor and the crank was visible.
I had the pleasure of shooting 25 rounds through a M2 several years ago at Knob creek.
All I can say is PLEASE God PLEASE don’t ever let me be on the down range side of a 50.
He was setting on a hill top with a radio man waiting for a bad guy to show up that was selling munitions. They (?) didn’t want him killed (I have no idea why) just scared.
The bad gun showed up and they waited for the buyer to show up. As both got out of their cars they were told over the radio that they were the ones and to scare them.
At over 800 yards using a Barrett he put one round through the side of the car.
The buyer jumped in his car and took off and the seller ended up walking (10 miles +) back from ever he came from.
After several hours my friend went to check out the car and see if anything was left in it.
The car was empty but he noticed the entry and exit hole. He popped the hood and the engine was in pieces.
It was a front wheel drive V6 and it took one whole side off the motor and the crank was visible.
I had the pleasure of shooting 25 rounds through a M2 several years ago at Knob creek.
All I can say is PLEASE God PLEASE don’t ever let me be on the down range side of a 50.
kaylorinhi
New member
Respect
Nothing to add that has been said yet but..
A platoon once had shirts that read, "Heavy Machine Platoon, Professional Drive-by's since 1921"
Oh Yeah, and IIRC it is in the books as "2 inches of homogenious steel at 90 degrees"
Nothing to add that has been said yet but..
A platoon once had shirts that read, "Heavy Machine Platoon, Professional Drive-by's since 1921"
Oh Yeah, and IIRC it is in the books as "2 inches of homogenious steel at 90 degrees"
ChrisB and .44AMP.
The range was 150 yards, tilted downward at a SLIGHT....angle. As in a few degrees just to prevent a straight-back ricochet.
there was roughly 6 ball ammo hits on the one piece of iron, at least 2 inches apart. None did more than "dent" it and make a tiny dish.
We fired 3 API rounds at the same plate. 2 heavily dished and dented the back, the third actually popped a teeny bit of metal out the back, making a pinhole. I am not positive, but I suspicion that it hit where a ball round had already impacted.
The range was 150 yards, tilted downward at a SLIGHT....angle. As in a few degrees just to prevent a straight-back ricochet.
there was roughly 6 ball ammo hits on the one piece of iron, at least 2 inches apart. None did more than "dent" it and make a tiny dish.
We fired 3 API rounds at the same plate. 2 heavily dished and dented the back, the third actually popped a teeny bit of metal out the back, making a pinhole. I am not positive, but I suspicion that it hit where a ball round had already impacted.
Major Dave (retired)
New member
My experience with the power of an M2
involved chopping down 12 inch to 24 inch diameter teak trees outside our perimeter in Vietnam (1966).
About a dozen of us, manning a counter mortar flash base, became bored during the daytime (enemy confined their activities to hours of darkness, mostly). So, we took turns, during the day, with our M2, chopping down teak trees. It was a competition to see who could chop down the biggest tree with the fewest rounds. Usually took only 5 or 6 rounds (ball ammo) to get the job done.
Each shot would result in pieces of tree trunk about the size of a 6 to 8 foot long 2x4 splitting off and sailing 10 to 20 feet into the surrounding jungle! The final, felling shot would usually be at a 6 or 8 inch diameter fragment of the tree trunk stubbornly holding up the tree canopy. At 200 yards, or so, it was a challenge to hit that small a target, but Ma Deuce was up to it! It was a sight to see a teak tree (as tough as our American Bois de'Arc, but much taller, thicker tree) collapse to the ground.
We stayed in that location for 30 days, just 11 of us, 5 clicks from the nearest supporting position, and never were attacked by Viet Cong. Guess they respected a weapon that could chop down huge trees with 5 or 6 shots.
Oh, and we had M-16's, too.
involved chopping down 12 inch to 24 inch diameter teak trees outside our perimeter in Vietnam (1966).
About a dozen of us, manning a counter mortar flash base, became bored during the daytime (enemy confined their activities to hours of darkness, mostly). So, we took turns, during the day, with our M2, chopping down teak trees. It was a competition to see who could chop down the biggest tree with the fewest rounds. Usually took only 5 or 6 rounds (ball ammo) to get the job done.
Each shot would result in pieces of tree trunk about the size of a 6 to 8 foot long 2x4 splitting off and sailing 10 to 20 feet into the surrounding jungle! The final, felling shot would usually be at a 6 or 8 inch diameter fragment of the tree trunk stubbornly holding up the tree canopy. At 200 yards, or so, it was a challenge to hit that small a target, but Ma Deuce was up to it! It was a sight to see a teak tree (as tough as our American Bois de'Arc, but much taller, thicker tree) collapse to the ground.
We stayed in that location for 30 days, just 11 of us, 5 clicks from the nearest supporting position, and never were attacked by Viet Cong. Guess they respected a weapon that could chop down huge trees with 5 or 6 shots.
Oh, and we had M-16's, too.
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SadistAssassin
New member
See. the 50 really will explode you....not complete pink mist...but pop your torso right in half..
This is what my 82a1 will do to a deer at 104 yards. Shot placement was bad but that's what happens when you shoulder fire a monster like this. I did it to say I can and now it is retired as a deer rifle. What the video shows is the gut wound from the cavitation and the exit wound. The entry wound was about .50 so the comments that they leave huge entry wounds is false. The bullet was never closer that 4 inches from the belly yet it split it clean open. The exit wound hit the rear hip bone mostly destroying everything. The deer moved about 3 to 4 feet. I'm sure it was just the recoil from the bullet.
WARNING WARNING WARNING. Blood guts and gore.
http://youtu.be/wKsVpYhLF9c
WARNING WARNING WARNING. Blood guts and gore.
http://youtu.be/wKsVpYhLF9c
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Hunter Guy, SOP for a quad-.50 was two at a time. That let the two loaders keep up. The "can" for each gun held two 105-round belts.
If the solenoids are properly set, they can run about 450 rounds per minute. The shooter saying (or thinking), "Fire a burst of six," holds for them, just as with a .30.
If the solenoids are properly set, they can run about 450 rounds per minute. The shooter saying (or thinking), "Fire a burst of six," holds for them, just as with a .30.
This video is a little dark at first, but it clearly answers your ".50 BMG vs deer" question.
http://youtu.be/PsD64KkCBFs
http://youtu.be/PsD64KkCBFs
warbirdlover
New member
Relative was a WWII pilot flying P-38's. Basically when they straffed the islands the soldiers below would be blown into pieces. Very powerful round and to compare to a "scaled up" .30-06 is ridiculous.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Aw, I dunno, wbl. I was on M-19s for a while, and a 40mm is just a scaled-up .50.
Last semester in my speech class I had a former Army Armorer(don't remember her exact MOS) talk about her job. From what she was telling us about the .50 was that you didn't even need to hit the target to do damage. She said that the energy it had could tear off an arm just by grazing it.
I scanned through this long thread to see if someone else had already pointed this out, but I didn't see it.
In the class of big game cartridges for BIG game, there are several in the 5000 - 6000 ft-lb class: 416 Rigby, 378 WBY, 458 Lott, 470 nitro-express (NE), 500 NE, etc.
Then there are a couple in the 7000 - 8500 ft-lb class: 460 WBY, 600 nitro-express, 577 tyrannosaur, plus a variety of specialty/wildcat cartridges.
And then there is the 50 bmg... with 14,000 ft-lb of energy... It is basically double the energy of the most powerful elephant/rhino cartridges around. This is not a small step up in energy... going from a 243 to a 375 H&H is doubling the energy, so imagine that there is as much difference between a 375 H&H and a 243 as there is between a 50 bmg and the most powerful elephant cartridges around.
In the class of big game cartridges for BIG game, there are several in the 5000 - 6000 ft-lb class: 416 Rigby, 378 WBY, 458 Lott, 470 nitro-express (NE), 500 NE, etc.
Then there are a couple in the 7000 - 8500 ft-lb class: 460 WBY, 600 nitro-express, 577 tyrannosaur, plus a variety of specialty/wildcat cartridges.
And then there is the 50 bmg... with 14,000 ft-lb of energy... It is basically double the energy of the most powerful elephant/rhino cartridges around. This is not a small step up in energy... going from a 243 to a 375 H&H is doubling the energy, so imagine that there is as much difference between a 375 H&H and a 243 as there is between a 50 bmg and the most powerful elephant cartridges around.