How our NFA rights were stolen from us

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Actually, the Texas State Guard is armed, though in recent pictures all I can find them using are M9s. However back in the 1980s, the Texas State Guard was one of the few entities to purchase the Holloway Arms HAC-7 .308 rifle for the state. (trivia)

 

[Tennessee Gentleman]

Actually, the Texas State Guard is armed

Looked at their web site and they don't look like an armed militia to me. Mostly support types. Look at the skill sets they want: IT, Medical etc. I think they are a lot like what we have in TN and that is mostly support and ceremonial. Now they might go to the range once in a while and familiarize but I wonder if they are even issued a personal weapon that they train with?

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

There primary duties are mostly providing aid in emergencies, so they are definitely geared more towards logistics and support. It also certainly appears that the current Guard emphasizes those duties more as well; but some State Guard members have deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan and they do have weapons.

 

[maestro pistolero]

It seems to me that the first clause of the 2A is meant to preserve the CAPABILITY of state being able to raise a militia from the ranks of the people. If our democratic institutions are so strong that is has been unnecessary to raise it for the purposes of resisting tyranny, then great.

As an analogy, even if my house may be nearly fireproof, I won't be tossing out my fire extinguishers. Eventually, we are going to need clarity that all conventional small arms are protected by the 2A, but with the likelihood that certain small arms may be subject to some additional regulation. But a ban such as we effectively have now must be off the table.

But we have much worse problems to tackle than NFA right now. We have active, so-called assault weapons bans in severals states. Now, if my civilian, semi-auto, M4-style AR15 isn't the MOST protected weapon in the country, I'll eat my friggin' hat.

We can worry all we want about the NFA, but rest-assured, the minute any state needs or merely wishes to activate the militia drawn from the general population, we will have all the FA's, SBS's, SBR's we are going to need.

 

[dogtown tom]

Bartholomew Roberts There primary duties are mostly providing aid in emergencies, so they are definitely geared more towards logistics and support. It also certainly appears that the current Guard emphasizes those duties more as well; but some State Guard members have deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan and they do have weapons.

Several years ago the TSG classified the function of it's units as military police, maritime, medical and air. Military police was replaced with civil affairs as the primary function.

The ONLY TSG members who can carry firearms are the members of the Quick Reaction Team that has a detachment with each local regiment.

 

[Tennessee Gentleman]

but some State Guard members have deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan and they do have weapons.

They have deployed overseas as members of a state militia? I don't think so, in fact don't they say they don't want you if you are subject to overseas deployment? As I said they may have some weapons sitting in an amrs room but I doubt they are issued as they are with the guard and so I disagree with you that they are a real armed militia is any real sense. Nevertheless, most other states, probably due to funding don't have those militias and probably never will.

 

[Tennessee Gentleman]

It seems to me that the first clause of the 2A is meant to preserve the CAPABILITY of state being able to raise a militia from the ranks of the people.

Agree. And if a state did so and choose to equip it's members with Full Auto weapons then they could and the NFA would not stop them. Even Walter Dellinger, hostile attorney in Heller admits that. However, an individual may not circumvent the NFA and possess an unregistered FA by asserting membership in a militia the state has not called up or made provision for.

 

[BlueTrain]

I'd have to view the National Guard as an evolved militia, yet some states have additional forces with various names, like Home Guard. One of their functions is to man the national guard armories when the national guard is deployed elsewhere. Here is a basic problem, which is the deployment of the national guard. The national guard does have home state duties, which they are often called upon to perform. Deployment of national guard units overseas leaves a serious gap sometimes. As far as I know, there's nothing the governor can do about it. The original theory was that increased reliance on army reserve and national guard units, like we actually have been doing, would have to mean the public's approval would be necessary for large scale operations involving those units. I don't know it it has worked out that way or not.

While many Revolutionary War period units did in fact employ many men armed with their personally owned weapons, generally rifles, as rifles in this country were generally not provided in military units, the vast majority of weapons were provided by governments, including the Continental Congress. That was even true before the revolution and the sparks that set off the beginnings of the revolution were attempts by the British in both Boston and Williamsburg to confiscate those militia weapons which were centrally stored. But there were enough in private hands to give the British some trouble on the way back from Lexington. The states differed somewhat in both their ability and willingness to equip army units.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I am not familiar enough with the Texas State Guard to answer those questions. All I know is:

1. There are pictures on the Net purporting to be Texas State Guard guys in Iraq/Afghanistan.

2. There are pictures on the Net of Texas State Guard guys armed with M9s.

3. In the 1980s, the State of Texas awarded a contract to Holloway Arms to provide the HAC-7 .308 rifle for the State Guard.

 

[RunAndGun]

New here and found this thread from my Google alert I have set up for the Texas State Guard.

Texas State Guard members have in the past been issued weapons from the National Guard Armories. However, TXSG personnel are expected to have access to personal weapons if needed. This is a REQUIREMENT for personnel assigned to the Quick Reaction Teams. These requirements are for 9mm handguns that are on an approved list. Unfortunately, there is no official logistical supply for ammunition set up, so TXSG personnel have to bring there own. Presumably, the 9mm criteria are there for possible resupply by the state or federal government in the field.

Quick Reaction Teams (QRT) main duties and training focus are Force Protection, Infrastructure Protection, and most recently Wide Area Damage Assessment. QRT members are required to qualify with their handguns every year. Qualification for non QRT TXSG members is optional. QRT members train one weekend a month and almost always one day is at the firing range.

TXSG are not subject to Federal military service any more than the average citizen are. However, it is not unheard of for TXSG members to leave state and enter federal service or for prior federal service members in the TXSG to be called up by the federal service. There are also some TXSG members on extended leave providing private security overseas. This explains why you see TXSG being represented overseas, but they are actually in federal or private service.

TXSG participates in the Small Arms Readiness Training programs and competitions provided by the National Guard for rifle, pistol, machine gun and sniper. TXSG for the past 3 years have dominated the competitions over all of the reserve federal forces taking most of the trophies and Governor's 20 tabs in rifle and pistol. Again, TXSG personnel are required to provide and compete with their personal civilian equivalent firearms and ammunition (groan).

In summary, most TXSG are not armed. However some are and take their job very seriously and display a high level proficiency and professionalism.

 

[BlueTrain]

If you think there will ever be a perfect system for the militia based either on something in Constituiton or on something given to us by the Lady of the Lake, dream on. How our rights enter into it is another story.

Many countries have or have had a form of militia, generally in various components. Ours of course consists of the national guard, if you care to include it, plus state guards as described already. I'd have to say the army reserve and the other reserves are more like second line regular forces, though that is not a good way to describe it, especially since they are sometimes on the front lines. But generally speaking, the militia has been that element that is never deployed, that is, not deployed overseas. You could get technical and talk about who controls the militia (at which level, that is) and that is something of a problem. Obviously, it has to be controlled by the government and usually it means the state government. The federal government seems to have set up the national guard to really be an element of the national army, for better or for worse.

There have sometimes been conflict between locally controlled militias and nationally controlled armies in that there is sometimes a kind of competition for manpower. At the moment that doesn't seem to be a problem but in wartime or other emergencies it has been. Arms for the militia is also a problem and always has been since from before the revolution. While it might be nice to think that all able-bodied men were willing and able to muster at the hue and cry completely equipped, it never worked out that way. You know how good people are at obeying the law and the militia law was no different. But it was better than nothing, though the revolution was a close run thing. These days it would be even more difficult to expect much in the way of a meaningful body of armed men if they were left to their own means.

Tell me, someone, what was the state of the militia during those dark days of the late 60s when the country was falling apart and so many big cities had real riots?

 

[ISC]

The National Guard and the militia are two completely different entities.

The militia is unorganized and not subject to call up by the federal government. I am a member of the Militia as are most of the men on this board, whether they know it or not. A militia is a local entity that is a organization of last resort to maintain and restore order in the absence of other civil authority. It is from the militia that Guardsmen are recruited.

I am also a member of the National Guard and it is part of that organization that I am now overseas. I am subject to the UCMJ, get provided uniforms and equipment and train to the same standard (or something very close to it) as the regular army.

To equate the National Guard with the militia is an insult and ignores our high standards of professionalism, personal sacrifice, and repeated foreign service. While it is true that all guardsmen are in the militia, all militia are certainly not in the Guard.

SECTION 2. Militia.--

(a) The militia shall be composed of all ablebodied inhabitants of the state who are or have declared their intention to become citizens of the United States; and no person because of religious creed or opinion shall be exempted from military duty except upon conditions provided by law.

(b) The organizing, equipping, housing, maintaining, and disciplining of the militia, and the safekeeping of public arms may be provided for by law.

(c) The governor shall appoint all commissioned officers of the militia, including an adjutant general who shall be chief of staff. The appointment of all general officers shall be subject to confirmation by the senate.

(d) The qualifications of personnel and officers of the federally recognized national guard, including the adjutant general, and the grounds and proceedings for their discipline and removal shall conform to the appropriate United States army or air force regulations and usages.

 

[Tennessee Gentleman]

The National Guard and the militia are two completely different entities.

The National Guard is the modern Militia reserved to the States by Art. I, § 8, cl. 15, 16, of the Constitution. MARYLAND V. UNITED STATES, 381 U. S. 41 (1965)

The militia is unorganized and not subject to call up by the federal government.

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions Article One Section 8 COTUS

I am a member of the Militia as are most of the men on this board

Depends on the state, if you are referring to 10 USC Sec. 311 then only if you are male and between the ages of 17 and 45. Being a member of the "unorganized" militia gives you no rights, duties or responsibilities. See U.S. v. Warin, 530 F.2d 103 (6th Cir.), cert. denied, 426 U.S. 948 (1976) or U.S. v. Oakes, 564 F. 2d 384 (10th Circuit,1977) The unorganized militia is essentially meaningless.

 

[Tennessee Gentleman]

TXSG are not subject to Federal military service any more than the average citizen are. However, it is not unheard of for TXSG members to leave state and enter federal service or for prior federal service members in the TXSG to be called up by the federal service. There are also some TXSG members on extended leave providing private security overseas. This explains why you see TXSG being represented overseas, but they are actually in federal or private service.

From their website (my bolding)

Enlistment Requirements
•Resident of Texas or enrolled student
•Age 17 to 60
•Reasonable Good Health
•Pass criminal background check
•Valid Texas Drivers License
•Prior Military Service - Honorable discharge required
•Helpful skill sets: JAG/Military experienced Attorneys, Rescue, Medical [Doctors, Nurses, Dentist, Dental Asst., Paramedics, EMT], Civil Affairs, Chaplain, Communications, IT, CPA, Education, Historian
•Prior Military Service NOT required
•No educational requirement for enlistment
•Educational and age requirements exist for officer commissioning
•Federal Service retirement NOT affected
•NO overseas deployment

Texas State Guard members have in the past been issued weapons from the National Guard Armories.

Do you have a cite showing when that was done and for what mission? Other than going to the range.

My reading of 32 USC 109 would make the Texas State Guard a state defense force and not the militia found in the COTUS.

 

[ADB]

The militia is unorganized and not subject to call up by the federal government. I am a member of the Militia as are most of the men on this board, whether they know it or not. A militia is a local entity that is a organization of last resort to maintain and restore order in the absence of other civil authority. It is from the militia that Guardsmen are recruited.

You are wrong. The National Guard is the "organized militia" as defined under the Militia Acts of 1792 and 1903. Also, the unorganized militia is also subject to call up by the federal government.

 

[RunAndGun]

I cannot for the life of me figure out how to quote in this forum! Help anyone?

In response to Tennessee Gentleman's question regarding issuance of weapons from National Guard Armories:

I have no cite showing when this has taken place and for what missions but there are numerous photographic examples in the Texas Military Forces Museum at Camp Mabry in Austin Texas, published history books pertaining to the TXSG, as well as from my personal photo collection from training missions I have been involved in.

When we were MP's (prior to changing to Civil Affairs) we provided security for the National Guard during FTX's as well as occasionally being OPFOR. We were armed with M16's and M9's if the mission called for it.

You quoted my post pertaining to why TXSG has been represented overseas and quoted the enlistment requirements adding your own bold type. Was there a question or a statement in there that I missed?

Yes. TXSG is a State Defense Force.

Thanks........RunAndGun

 

[Tennessee Gentleman]

You quoted my post pertaining to why TXSG has been represented overseas and quoted the enlistment requirements adding your own bold type. Was there a question or a statement in there that I missed?

Just wanted to show that the TXSG does not deploy as the TXSG overseas.

Yes. TXSG is a State Defense Force.

And therefore not an armed militia. At least constitutionally.

 

[Al Norris]

And therefore not an armed militia. At least constitutionally.

Been there. Done that. Many times.

The National Guard is not a State Militia (armed or not). Even Heller conceded that point:

Congress is given the power to “provide for calling forth the militia,” §8, cl. 15; and the power not to create, but to “organiz[e]” it—and not to organize “a” militia, which is what one would expect if the militia were to be a federal creation, but to organize “the” militia, connoting a body already in existence, ibid., cl. 16.

Slip OP @ 23.

The National Guard is as much a select militia as is a standing army. They are in fact, one and the same. See Congressional Budgets (§8, cl. 12: but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years). If the Guard were not a Federal creation, then the Congress would not be bound by the militia appropriations clause.

State Defense Forces, were a concession to the constitution, made by the congress when it fully and completely federalized the various State Guards.

Can we now stop beating this dead horse?

 

[RDak]

Can we now stop beating this dead horse?

Yes, I'm surprised this theory is still being argued....especially since, as Al correctly stated, the SCOTUS, in Heller, conceded the point that the National Guard is not a State militia.

Al is also correct when he says State Defense Forces were a concession to the constitution when the National Guard was put under the control of the Federal government.

You may disagree with Heller in this regard but the Court did make the above quoted conclusion.

 

[Tennessee Gentleman]

Well RDak as you know I have claimed all along that there is no more militia and it is a dead letter.

As to Heller did you read the quote (Post#33)above from MARYLAND V. UNITED STATES, 381 U. S. 41 (1965)? Might want to think about that some more. You may disagree with it but the Court did make the above quoted conclusion.

The Guard is the lineal descendant of the Well-Regulated Militia of the 2A. Since the militia system didn't work and nobody wanted to be in it then the NG came along and eventually was federalized. It was just another nail in the coffin of an idea (citizens militia) whose time had long since passed.

From what I have read and seen in my own state these "State Defense Forces" are no more armed militia than I am an Olympic Athlete (and I ain't one) They are support (IT, Medical and logisitcal) and ceremonial outfits to supplement manpower with volunteers. Not the miltia of 1789.