How not to handle a traffic stop.

[manta49]

Reference the unarmed Police in Northern Ireland? Are not the RUC Armed?
Or whatever they are called now?

They are called the PSNI and they are armed because they were targeted by a well armed terrorist group. They managed to murder over 300 of them so they have every reason to be wary. There are around 10,000 officers here and approximately 861,000 in America. So that would equate if my maths is correct to around 2,400 dead officers if it happened in America. But I have never seen them stopping a car with weapon drawn, or heard of them shooting someone with a walking stick in N Ireland.

Nope. How many cops in the UK have been shot and killed on traffic stops in the last 10 years?

None that I am aware of, why do you think that is. ?

 

[B.N.Real]

There is a video from the dashcam of a police officer who was shot dead by an older man (60ish) who got out of his car before the officer ever got a chance to get out of his car.

That driver got right out with a AR-15 and killed the officer right through his front car windshield.

The driver was later apprehended and the reasons for his killing the officer are too stupid to write here.

Police officers today don't know what they are going to come up against or when the Grim Reaper has a bad present waiting for them to kill them.

In a combat situation you only have a scant few seconds until you are dead.

Knowing this, as citizens, we should do our part by showing the officers the due respect they deserve by simply waiting IN THE CAR until they tell us why we were pulled over and treating them like people because they are just like you and me, people.

We really do need to have a tv campaign that tells the public the right way to deal with a traffic stop.

-Pull over as soon as it is safe.

-Stay in your car, hands on your steering wheel.

-When the officer comes to your car and asks you too,roll down your window.

-Actually listen to what the officer has to say.

-Do what he says.

-Either go on your way warned or sign the ticket.

And both of you have a nice day.

It ain't rocket science.

And if you were doing thirty over the speed limit or driving drunk, expect to get a ticket and likely arrested.

Just be man enough to stop and not make it all a thousand times worse by running or running your mouth.

JUST PULL OVER, IT'S WAY CHEAPER THEN RUNNING.

 

[CharlieDeltaJuliet]

Back in the older generations day, they got out of their vehicle in this area,NC,SC... My father, 74, was always taught to step out when pulled over. Just something that changed with the times. I am not going to get into what the man and the officer done. It is only an opinion. But there are no laws that state to remain in your vehicle. On the police officers behalf, it looked like a firearm for between 1-2 seconds.. Tough call.


I know that all around our nation police are heard about "mistakenly shooting a boy who answered his door with a Wii controller" and other cases. Just glad the man is ok..

 

[Ruger480]

I feel bad for the vet and the cop both, but feelings can't be allowed to cloud the issue.
The basis of law is simply that if an action is unlawful donning a uniform and/or badge is NOT an excuse.
If a shooter shot a man on the street who had only a cane and that shooter was not a cop what do you think the county prosecutor would do?
Sad as it is, that’s exactly what the prosecutor should do.

Would you think the words "I was afraid" would hold water?

Fear and the control of fear is the job. Having been a cop myself I know about these things, and I feel a deep sorrow for the cop, but if this kind of thing is allowed it's an open door for bad cops to do the same thing for evil reasons

I agree with this one hundred percent. For the DA to not treat it as such only adds to the credence that LEOs are above the law. Second, I noticed there are a lot of people who are quick to point out what they perceive to be wrong moves by the old man and seem to be just as quick to defend the actions of the LEO.

What ever happened to positive ID of your target?
When I was in a spec ops unit in the army, they would court martial you for shooting a friendly. I'm not saying he needs to serve time but I think more than 2 weeks paid leave while the situation is investigated is not sufficient.

 

[SamNavy]

If you think incidents like this old man getting killed while reaching for his cane are isolated, you're living in a bubble. While I don't think it's fair to say, "cops in this country are out of control", I do think it's well within accurate to say that the entirety of professional law enforcement in this country needs an immediate and complete overhaul on it's use of deadly force standards and de-escalation training.

The number of websites dedicated to exposing police brutality will come as a surprise to some... a lot of you are either completely in the dark about the sheer amount of it, or simply don't want to hear it.
http://www.copblock.org/
http://www.policebrutality.info/
http://www.policemisconduct.net/
http://policecrimes.com/
...google will show you a dozens if not a few hundred more.

In a few years, body-cams will be standard field equipment for all police officers. I've been following the trend closely, and it's about damn time.

You can google "rialto police cameras"... this city in Cali is the poster-place for the effectiveness of mandatory body-cams on all officers:
In the first year after the cameras were introduced here in February 2012, the number of complaints filed against officers fell by 88 percent compared with the previous 12 months. Use of force by officers fell by almost 60 percent over the same period.

I'd venture a guess that the only thing currently standing in the way of immediate implementation across the country are the police unions... but that will change.

 

[BumbleBug]

...The basis of law is simply that if an action is unlawful donning a uniform and/or badge is NOT an excuse.
If a shooter shot a man on the street who had only a cane and that shooter was not a cop what do you think the county prosecutor would do?
Sad as it is, that’s exactly what the prosecutor should do.

Would you think the words "I was afraid" would hold water?

Fear and the control of fear is the job...

Wyosmith said it just right. Being a cop is a tough job. I'm sure. I know I couldn't do it. Some have the mettle & temperament to be a cop but this type of person is really few & far between to find. The high demand therefore fills the police ranks with some people that have a sense of exemption from the law & then puts a gun on their hip all day.

Indeed I feel bad for the cop. He never should have been there. He obviously was put in the wrong job as demonstrated by his actions. Six shots sprayed down the highway(?) Watch the video & look at the cars going by as you hear the shots. Sounds like he had a revolver & just emptied it. Watching the video, it looks like if the vet had a shotgun he could still have shot the cop.

If there was not a dash cam this incident definitely would have had a different spin.

 

[Spats McGee]

First, let's not allow this thread to degenerate into a cop-bashing thread. Discussing how to handle a traffic stop, including whatever we know (or think we know) about a police officer's expectations, anticipated reactions, etc. However, if it does degenerate into cop-bashing, this thread will be closed.

Second, and related to the first point, for those who CC, knowing how to handle interactions with the police is very, very important. It's important, not only for those instances when a CC-er has had to shoot someone in SD, but also for more mundane interactions with the police. I've been asked on several occasions how to handle something like a traffic stop, and one of the bigger points that I like to make is: To a police officer, there's a world of difference between:
(a) "Good evening, officer. Here's my DL, my insurance, registration and my CCL. I do have a pistol. It's in a holster on my right hip." and
(b) "I'VEGOTAGUN!!!"

Stay calm. Don't make any sudden moves. If there's one person that day that you don't want to surprise, it's that officer. If you're in a jx that requires you to inform, do so as soon as you can.

I know a lawyer here in town who is a former police officer. He tells a story of being stopped and asked for his registration and insurance. Those documents were in his console, as was the pistol that he'd carried as a duty weapon. The exchange went something like this:
Attorney: Good evening, officer.
Officer: Evenin'. Driver's license, registration and proof of insurance, please.
A: Here's my DL and my CHCL.
O: Registration and proof of insurance?
A: Well, those are in my console.
O: Why don't you get them out?
A: You know, I'd really like to, but I'm not going in that console, not for nothing.
O: Why not?
A: Because there's a full-sized duty weapon in there, loaded, and I don't want you to think I'm reaching for a weapon. Write me a ticket if you have to. That's OK.

As I understand the story, the lawyer got a ticket for an improper left turn, or some such, but the officer declined to write a ticket for failing to present registration and insurance.

 

[TailGator]

Most cops are well-intentioned and professional, but there are a few who, for a variety of reasons (training, fear, etc), behave otherwise. I have a hearing deficit, and I have had an officer get quite testy with me when I was momentarily confused and had to ask her to repeat a question. It was a simple hearing issue which she took as belligerence. Even after I explained my hearing problem, she remained very hostile, and I have the feeling that it was the difference between a warning and a ticket. I have a certain amount of fear that another officer will take a failure to respond to an order as a hostile act.

There seems to be an escalating climate of fear among law officers, which, even though understandable, is causing some incidents that officers later regret. I am not sure what solution there is to that, though, because LEOs have every reason to want to go home to their families at the end of shift.

 

[Brit]

Reference my friend from N-Ireland, I am very familiar with the troubles.
I left Liverpool in 1965, age 30.
A great friend of mine, Des. was in Security in Toronto, worked were I lived.

He spent 15 years in Royal Marines, 7 in the RUC. Then one day said enough, off to Canada.

I have lived in Florida for over ten years, not been stopped much, the one that fits in here... I was working undercover, possible an Ex employee would return, and target the administrator (Medical Facility) We did 30 days inside, and thirty outside, parked in various locations.

Checked in every AM with OPD Dispatch. Our Company, vehicle, we are in, armed, etc. A couple of times the message was not passed on!

Heading home, lights behind, Blue and Red, I pulled to right, both windows open, engine off, keys on dash, hands at ten to 4, my partner, hands on knees.

"Good evening Officer" Her, big smile (Gorgeous lady) "You have been stopped B/4?" "I used to teach Vehicle stops ma'am"

Then explained, the job, our Company.

"Stay Safe", from me, from her, off we went.

Reference the type of Police Officer we hire? Educated, from good homes, PC savvy, a lot with degrees, no criminal convictions, ETC.

I just described a non hard case! On average, never been in a fight as an adult! Perceived trouble, gun out! Close with subject? Last thing on their minds.

 

[Nanuk]

None that I am aware of, why do you think that is. ?

That is a sociological and cutural issue. But the fact remains it is a more dangerous job here than there.

To the OP as Spats said we all know how we are supposed to act during a traffic stop. We all know the cop is on edge. Why then escalate the situation?

 

[guruatbol]

I could only read about 2/3 of this thread. For a gun forum there are some pretty ignorant things said here.

As a retired LEO, I can tell you there are many reasons we do what we do.

# 1 six shots does not surprise me. When on the range you don't have anyone shooting at you unless you turn off the line with your weapon, then as a range safety I would have to draw and possibly fire on you. When you are practicing either in the trailer with the video or on a live fire range, you are much more relaxed. when the adrenaline is pumping your trigger finger will tend to pull more and way before you intend for it.

#2 There is never a reason to get out of your car when stopped until or unless instructed by the arresting officer. Yes you heard me arresting officer. You are being detained and all the ticket is, is a promise on your part to comply, or if you refuse to comply you will be hauled in.

#3 I can not think of one officer I have ever met or worked with, which is thousands, that don't want to protect and serve first. I can't think of one single one that would not do what ever needed to be done to save a civilian.

#4 Our LEO don't get nearly the respect they desirve! Unlike Vets they are just cast aside with no help for PTSD or anything else out there. Once retired, you are just retired.

Would it have changed things if the Vet was not a vet, but an OG (Original Gangster) and when he pulled the cane it was a cane gun? Of course it would. The reason play guns have an orange tip is so that one can determine the difference between them and the real thing.

Yes you can find incidents of shootings where the LEO felt he was in danger and shot and as for dogs, I would shoot one in a heart beat if it was showing aggressive behavior. I would do it in my own neighborhood. I currently work as an underground utility locator and have to go into people's back yards. When it comes to dogs, I don't care how friendly you say your dog is, put it away or I will not enter! If I don't enter, animal control will be called and your dog will go to jail.

So, gun control is not the answer, video cameras are not the answer. personal accountability is. A video camera will help when a bad LEO slips through.

Lastly what nobody has taken into consideration while slamming LEO, is they all go through psychological evaluations, physical evaluations, and intense background checks among other things just to get the job. Then after an incident like this they go through many things including psychological evaluations before being allowed back on the streets. Some never return, this is as traumatic to them as it is to anyone else! These guys are human. Mistakes are made. You can not stop that.

As for the UK, I frankly know much and do not travel there as I don't feel safe there, the LEO not having firearms and all. They can not protect me or themselves from the bad guys who even there still get firearms! Yes even in the most restrictive gun controlled areas of this globe the bad guys still get firearms. Not just the ones we can buy off the shelf either.

Mel

 

[Frank Ettin]

This thread some time ago stopped being about Tactics & Training and became one about how folks feel about cops.

That's not what we discuss here.