How many times can you chamber a round safely?

[44 AMP]

This discussion has raised a few more questions in my mind, so I'll ask them and see what you think.

First, does anyone have any examples of bullet setback NOT from a Browning type tilt barrel gun??

For example from either a fixed barrel semi or one where the barrel just reciprocates in the same plane and does not tilt?
Anyone have any examples of setback happening in a Luger?? or a P.38? Beretta?? or are they all coming from tilt barrel guns?

IF bullets are being pushed back into the case, then they must be hitting something, if its not the feed ramp, what is it??

If bullets are not being pushed back into the case from hitting something and its the slide hitting the back of the case and shoving it up over the bullet (which personally I doubt) then wouldn't the heaviest slides with the strongest springs be the most likely to do that?

So where's the tales of setbacks from Desert Eagle shooters?? Fixed barrel and the heaviest slide and strongest springs you will commonly find. Is it the solid roll crimp of the revolver cartridges that prevents setback there?? What about the .50 AE, its taper crimped. Any reports of setback there? I've not heard of any...

And then there's the "if its set back, its too short to feed" thing. POSSIBLY, IF its enough too short. However some guns will actually feed empty cases, and about all of them will feed rounds shorter than others. The gun can't tell if your round is setback .2" from its spec length or if you're feeding a round with a shorter bullet that is that same .2" shorter when at it's spec length. (and .2" is just a number for illustration)

Seems to be its happening, rarely, but happening only in some duty class semi autos, in certain calibers. We have some proof that the method of chambering and rechambering can affect how often it seems to happen.

My theory is that the ammo is being made just borderline durable enough (and no more) and that sometimes, a round here and there slips over that border and sets back.

Thoughts??

 

[J.G. Terry]

Bullet Setback and Your Defensive Handgun

Bullet Setback and Your Defensive Handgun: Check out the video on JohnKSa's previous post. The gun used to illustrate set back is a Glock. Not so, it's an animation that is not accurate. The graphic representation of the fed ramp in relationship to the chamber is not even close. I do have give John credit for consistency in his data and references. Those all are pretty much of the same quality throughout. Thanks to him for his help understanding the problems involved with setback. Incidentally I'm am looking at a G23.4 as we speak. What is the gun that leaves brass stripes up the fed ramp?

 

[J.G. Terry]

Comments!

44AMP: To me. it would take some really lousy cartridges to set back the way auto's are made. Who would build an automatic where the nose of the bullet contribute to a malfunction.

I could not get the RCBS SWC dinged up feeding into an unmodified 1911. I'd suggest any skeptics to take their hand guns and slowly let the slide forward feeding a round into the chamber from the magazine. I had used 1911, HK UPSC and G.23 for my little test. John's gun appear to the the Net Blaster Customs weapons.

Comments John? "Everybody knows"...is not an answer. What is brown, stinks and is found in the barn yards?

 

[JJ45]

I'm the OP and God Bless you guys I didn't think it would go this far but my original question that ended the post was "should I be worried" is somewhat in limbo.

As I said I have been, as they say, blissfully ignorant, as I have re-chambered rounds countless times, for years, with no problems ....UNTIL the internet made me aware there might be a danger

 

[J.G. Terry]

Blown up and gone

JJ45: Obviously you were blown up and are communicating from another world. You would have been fine if you had stayed away from the net.

 

[Forte S+W]

@44 AMP
I've experienced bullet setback in my Walther PPK/S, which is a fixed barrel, straight blowback operated pistol. What is causing the bullet to setback? Presumably the steep incline of the feed ramp. It isn't a straight shot from the magazine to the chamber in all fixed barrel firearms.

 

[J.G. Terry]

What about the Nambu (-:

 

[7.62 man]

The easy way to carry one in the chamber without having any chance of this dangerous setback is to drop in a round with the gun pointed at the ground. That is with the slide back & you are in a safe place, then let the slide drop & load the mag.
I never thought about it until everyone started talking about it. I always carry with one in the chamber & haven't noticed any setback on my carry rounds. Then at the range as I was loading up my carry ammo that I realized what I was doing, that I guess others were not. I don't cycle my first round from the mag. I drop it in while the slide is back, then thumb it down to close the slide.
Is this good or bad? It totally stops the chance of causing any setback problems. Is a round cycled from the mag any better than that first round dropped in with the slide back?
This may be something I have to investigate my next trip to the range.

 

[44 AMP]

The easy way to carry one in the chamber without having any chance of this dangerous setback is to drop in a round with the gun pointed at the ground. That is with the slide back & you are in a safe place, then let the slide drop & load the mag.

It's the easy way, but you should NOT DO IT, unless the maker states it is ok.

There are some gun designs where it is allowable, and safe, and some where it is not.
In the Browning 1911 design, and all variants and clones since that have internal extractors, dropping the slide on a chambered round is A BAD IDEA. The gun is designed to feed from the magazine. The rim of the round SLIDES up under the hook of the extractor as it chambers.

Dropping the slide on a chambered round forces the extractor to BEND outward to get over the rim, a place and a direction it was never meant to go. Then it has to "snap" (bend) back in order to hook the case rim. Extractors will USUALLY survive this, for a while, but the can also break from doing this, and/or lose tension, becoming "bent" and no longer properly hooking the case rim.

There are other designs, using pivoting extractors where the gun is designed to allow you to drop the slide on a chambered round without stressing the mechanism. IF the maker approves it, go for it. If they do not, don't do it.

I have one pistol where the owner's manual specifically warns NEVER let the bolt slam forward on a chambered round. I mention this to show that gun designs are DIFFERENT, and what is ok in one could damage another.

Thank you Forte S+W, that is the kind of personal experience I was looking for. Is your PPK/S a .32 or .380?

 

[J.G. Terry]

44 AMP: Is there any way you can post a side view picture of your Walther with slide removed and magazine in the gun?

 

[JJ45]

@44 AMP
I've experienced bullet setback in my Walther PPK/S, which is a fixed barrel, straight blowback operated pistol. What is causing the bullet to setback? Presumably the steep incline of the feed ramp. It isn't a straight shot from the magazine to the chamber in all fixed barrel firearms.

Here we go I am quite sure that the pistol(s) that I have chambered and re-chambered the most are my PM Makarovs! A fixed barrel, straight blow back pistol...and this always with East Bloc, steel cased ammo. Almost all FMJ but JHP on occasion.

Never a problem. But I really don't know if there was bullet set back in a cartridge that I fired and didn't notice any effect.

 

[JohnKSa]

Check out the video on JohnKSa's previous post. The gun used to illustrate set back is a Glock.

The slow motion video I've been talking about that I posted a link to in post #26 of this thread is of a 1911.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bp-HFVG_c4Q

What is the gun that leaves brass stripes up the fed ramp?

Most of the semi-auto pistols I own leave copper marks (jacketing material) on the feedramp during the feeding process.

I'm not going to do pictures of all of them, but here's a picture of the first one I pulled out of the box to check. This is a picture of a clean Glock 19 feedramp after having a commercial JHP round chambered 5x from the magazine. For whatever it's worth, that round now measures 1.09" COAL compared to 1.10" to the other round I pulled out of the box next to it that hadn't ever been chambered.

Not the greatest picture ever, but the jacket marks left by the impact of the bullet on the feedramp are clearly visible.

Is there any way you can post a side view picture of your Walther with slide removed and magazine in the gun?

The top rounds sits low enough in the gun it's not easy to make anything out. However, while I was checking on it, I did note a bullet material streak on the feedramp of the PPK that more or less matches the mark on the Glock feedramp pictured above.

Sorry for the image quality, but here's the PPK feedramp showing jacket material marks.

Here's a picture that shows a couple of barrels with jacketing material marks on the feedramps. Note that this is not my image, it's from the article in the link below.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/gear-review-lone-wolf-alpha-wolf-threaded-glock-barrel/

Here we go I am quite sure that the pistol(s) that I have chambered and re-chambered the most are my PM Makarovs! A fixed barrel, straight blow back pistol...and this always with East Bloc, steel cased ammo. Almost all FMJ but JHP on occasion.

Interestingly enough, the worst case of setback I've seen was with a Makarov shooting aluminum cased ammo. I think that the biggest part of the problem was the aluminum cases not holding the bullet as firmly as brass would, but clearly some aspect of the pistol played a part in creating the issue.

...my original question that ended the post was "should I be worried" is somewhat in limbo.

Now that you understand the topic and the potential issues, I don't think there's any need to worry. That's the best part of this topic. Once you understand the situation, it's really very simple to make absolutely sure that it can't become a problem.

If you're repeatedly chambering the same round, I would definitely check it once in awhile to see if it's setting back. Also, at some point, maybe it's time to shoot that round rather than chambering it repeatedly. Never hurts to get some practice once in awhile and to get some new ammo in your carry gun at the same time.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Here is a picture of a factory Silvertip .45 ACP that was chambered in a Star PD 3 times.
The round on the left is new. The shortened round will feed just fine from a magazine into the gun. I would expect significantly higher pressure, and I would not fire this round.
Bullet setback is very real.
This round sits in my desk drawer as a reminder of it.

 

[J.G. Terry]

Still don't see it

My Glock's show no indication of anything that would cause set back. I stand by what I say. This set back is a creature of the Net. I do not see anything, to cause set back. I did measure my Hornady rounds. The COL of these often rechambered rounds were consistent showing no indications of set back.

Added: I am not cooking data to make a point

LW barrels. Years ago a LW barrel would jam the slide back on my G29. In the end LW blamed the slide as being out of specs. Money was refunded. The gun was returned to Glock. There was nothing wrong with the slide. Therefore, I'd look to the Glock barrels as examples. I don't trust LW any longer.

 

[J.G. Terry]

Another angle-bunch added

When we look at the pictures head or angled shots of the feed ramp are shown. Pictures from this angle are distorted enough to made a head on collision of bullet on ramp. Actually looking at the ramp for other angles show how round is elevated in the magazine to avoid this head on crash. The ramp is not as steep as appears in the photos. Check it out in you own gun.

Added: Any indication in my guns of any contact with the bullet it is the very top of the ramp. I wonder if this is the tail of the case going through rather than the bullet jamming into the ramp.

Added: Do check out post #26

Added: How come this set back is only on the first round. Looks like all the rounds should be shortened. What's special about that first round? The clanking noise in one video in post #26 is the action going into battery. It makes this noise with or without round.

 

[Blade37db]

I'm glad someone asked this question because I always wondered about it. I always thought in terms of the case rim and never considered setback.

As matter of habit, if I drop a mag and unload a chambered round after 2 or 3 times, I usually try to remember to put it back in the mag towards the bottom (and reload the whole mag).

 

[Sharkbite]

This set back is a creature of the Net.

No...its not. I have seen it repeatedly with duty guns that were loaded and unloaded often.

Heck, there is plenty of photos in this thread to show its real. I keep an eye on my chambered round. When it starts to show setback. I swap it for a fresh round and throw the old one in my range ammo stash.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Everyone see post 53. Setback can and does happen.
Visually check your ammunition against rounds that have not been chambered. If one is noticeably shorter than the others, dispose of that round. Do not shoot it.

For those who just can't seem to grasp this concept, because they can't visualize it on THEIR gun- It only happens with the top round because that is the one that is usually chambered/unchambered multiple times.

 

[Forte S+W]

Thank you Forte S+W, that is the kind of personal experience I was looking for. Is your PPK/S a .32 or .380?

It's a Smith & Wesson PPK/S-1 chambered in .380 ACP.

44 AMP: Is there any way you can post a side view picture of your Walther with slide removed and magazine in the gun?

I presume it is me you meant to ask? I can't do that right now, and it wouldn't really help anyway from that angle since the feed ramp would be obscured by the internal slide stop, but here are some pictures I found via a Google Image Search that may satisfy you.

By the way, it's important to note that my PPK/S is a Smith & Wesson manufactured model with a modified feedramp. Older models by other manufacturers have a two-piece feed ramp which is a bit less steep, but doesn't always feed JHPs well.

 

[J.G. Terry]

Nobody has explained about the other rounds. Do they set back or is it limited only to the first round chambered? Should not this set back be happening to all the rounds cycled through the gun?

Where is there genuine examples of set back rounds making a KB? This would come from some source other than the net. "Everybody knows" does not count. I am not talking about a rehash of increasing pressure as bullets being seated deeper in the case. Most of this KB stuff is to cover up a double charge anyway.

Some of the photos here are dubious. Not all but some look cooked. Information cited from the net is the same old stuff repeated over yet again. The danger is closer and more serious each time story is passed along the net.

There is still the issue of there being no firearm or cartridge manufacturer with a warning about set back. No warning other than those on the net have been cited. How about showing the non-believers some of these real warnings. I can't remember a recall of cartridges due to set back. This would be some solid information not from the net about set back. This would exclude the National Inquirer.