How many shoot .358 caliber rifles? The .35 Rem. don't count

P

Paul B.

New member
How many here shoot .35 caliber rifle cartridges other than the .35 Remington. The Remington round is popular, while the .358 Winchester is for all practical purposes, dead in the water, and the .35 Whelan is slowly going down for the third time. What the status of the .358 Norma mag. is, I don't know.
A few years back, Winchester dropped the 250 gr. bullet from production, and I have not been able to find any 250 gr. factory loads for my Whelan for quite a while. I much prefer them for elk. Come to think of it, I haven't seen any 200 gr. loads on my dealer shelves either. Not lately, anyway. Good thing I can make brass from .308 Won. and 30-06 brass.
Come to think of it, I have not been able to get 250 gr. factory ammo for my .338 Mag. either.
I reload, so it is no big thing, but it would be nice to be able to buy the heavier bullets, should you run out, or lose your supply.
As to loading the Whelan, in Elmer Keith's book, BIG GAME RIFLES, his loads with 3031 run about 5 or 6 grains higher than anything you can find in todays loading manuals. Now he did not blow his rifles up, or if he did, he never admitted it, so I wonder???? Have there been subtle changes in the design of the Whelan that we don't know about? I believe all his rifles had a 1 in 12 inch twist in the barrel. Why are currnet manufacturers using the 1 in 16 inch twist?
One last question. Why is it, that the .35 Remington is so popular, and the .358, and .35 Whelan are not? They're both better cartridges. Boy! More and more questions, and no real answers.
Well I think the .358 Win. and .35 Whelan are pretty darn good cartridges, and I have mine.
Paul B.
 
I do... I've got four .358's and a 350 RM. I've also got a 35 Remington but since that don't count... I guess I only have five. My favorite is a custom Savage that is just super light and only kicks like a mule if other people shoot it... it's just fine for me. There is an EXCELLENT article on why the 358 is dead in the August issue of Handloader. It says that the place where you most need a gun like the .358 is in heavy brush. Problem is, that's also where you need a quick follow-up shot. The .358 has more recoil than an '06. Makes follow-up shots hard. My BLR is quicker than any bolt-action, but it's far to pretty to hunt with!
 
Badgerarms. I read that HANDLOADER article, but I don't necessarily agree with what he said. Using the 250 gr. Hornady Spire point at 2300 FPS, a 3 inch high zero at 100 yards will give you a 200 yard zero with almost 2000 ft. lbs. of energy. Even the Hornady RN with a 3 inch high setting won't be so low as to be useless at 200 yards. A 200 gr. Spire point should be effective on deer to close to 250 yards at 2500 FPS.
I can reach those velocities in my Ruger Mod.77, so I think the .358 Win. is under rated for some longer range use.
I just got some 200 gr. Hornady spire points for .35 caliber, and if the accuracy is there, I'll try them for a deer hunt I'm planning in New Mexico. Should be interesting. I got the best velocity with
H-335, using the Hornady 250 gr. RN, if I remember right, but I'd have to look. I was planning on another rain forest elk hunt, and figured out that a .358 might not be a bad idea.
Kind of a weird story on how I got mine. I'd just gone back to work after an unfruitful elk hunt on the Olympic Penninsula. I'd gotten the idea that something like a .358 Win. might be a good idea for that area. Anyway, looking through the firearms section of the paper, one night at work, I saw an ad for a Ruger 77 in .358. As it was about 10 PM, I cut the ad out with the intention of calling them the next day. Well, my train of thought got derailed, and I forgot about the ad, until I found it in my wallet about 6 weeks after it ran in the paper. I called the guy anyway, and he not only still had it, but it was new in the box, unfired. $250. I told him my name, and said I would be there within the hour, consider it sold.
The stock was so pretty, I took it off and put a McMillan stock on it. Better in rain forest anyway. It does 1.5 inches with the 250 gr. Hornady RN's and about 7/8's with the 200 gr. Sierra RN's. I haven't tried spitzers in it yet. I did not think that the recoil was that bad. Seems like the late Jack O'Connor felt that the gun would be a good brush gun, but that it kicked too much. I don't think his evaluation of the .358 helped it much, and in fact may be a good part of it's unpopularity. Elmer Keith liked it though. So do I. I like my .35 Whelans too. Al Miller wrote a great article on the .35's, in either RIFLE or HANDLOADER. I can't remember which. I wrote him and complimented him on it, and he answered back with some load data for a cast bullet in the Whelan. The 200 gr. RCBS #35-200FN. He duplicated factory velocities with it. I got the mold, but so far I have only tried it in the .358, which so far does not like the bullet. Oh well. Back to the drawing board.
Paul B.
P.S. Moderater. I goofed. This should probably be in the Rifles forum. Feel free to transfer it over.
P.B.
 
I have two 35s....a Marlin .35 Rem that's hunted a lot and a custom Mauser in 358 Norma . Now that I'm living where the elk are, I'll get to us the Norma. :-))
 
Paul B,
Federal makes a 250 gr. Nosler Partition High Energy load for your .338, I just bought a few boxes of it for my upcoming bear hunt. I'll post results if there are any!
 
I shoot a .350 Rem Mag built on a Remington Model 7. I ordered this from the custom shop after an unpleasant bear incident and I think its the best possible compromise for my needs. Its short, handy and light and throws a big .250 grain partition - a good, quick stopper for another bear And its not an unreasonable medium range deer cartridge which is my game of choice.



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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Keith. How goes it. I remember some of the discussions we had regarding the necessity of a controlled feed action to use against dangerous game. Glad to see you finally found a suitable rifle. I completely forgot about the .350 Rem. mag. when I started this thread.
I don't know. I just can't see why the .35's are so unpopular with most shooters. Oh well. We have ours.
Paul B.
 
It goes well.
I've wrung the rifle out pretty thoroughly and I can't make it misfeed.
I was pretty concerned at first because the action was so tight and stiff, but an hour with a dremel and some polishing paste cleared all that up.

I don't think the controlled feed is a real issue - but with that said, now that I have it in hand, I don't think the short action is any faster than a standard length mauser action. The slicker mauser action makes up for the difference. You still save a pound in weight and an inch or so in length giving you a slight edge, but.... for the price, a Whelen or .376 Steyr built on an old standard mauser would be a cheaper way to go and an excellent rifle.

Hindsight is 20/20


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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
A GA gunshop had a Rem 700 .35 Whelen in the shop for a while. They sold it a couple of days before I tried to get it. Damn.
 
Color me a fan of the .358 Norma Mag.
I am building one on a Dakota 76 action, so it will have all of the joyous (and necessary) attributes of a proper dangerous game hunting rifle.
It has a 24" PacNor super match barrel, and will soon have a McMillan stock.
Next, I pony up for the Schmidt&Bender 1.5-6X scope with illuminated reticle.
It is expensive, but after trying one, I feel that this rifle deserves one.

One neat thing about this caliber is that the trajectories are very similar to the 30-06, so you don't need to get all confused ballistically when you go to the heavier gun.
i started this project ages ago, and hope to finish it soon. I wanted to hunt Elk with it this year, but we didn't get drawn.
That is entirely Rich Lucibella's fault. :D
 
I shoot a .375 Win necked down to .358. I use a .30-30 AI to resize the body and a .38/.357 sizer for the neck. The neck is slightly over a caliber in length. It duplicates the .35 Remington in external ballistics. H&R single shot. A bad little dude in the thick.
 
I have one of the rem 700 classics in 35 whelen. Great gun. Wish there were more ammo options though.
Bought it for a good price and enjoy having it around since it will take anything in the country that I care to shoot at.
 
I'm surprised to hear the 358 Norma is still alive. I was beginning to think I was a whack for wanting one. Aside from the wildcats and obsolete stuff, there are the 35 Remington, 356 Winchester, 358 Winchester, 350 Remington Magnum, 35 Whelen, and 358 Norma Magnum.

I do believe that the 358 Norma is too much in the 338 Mag class to be of much use. The other 35's are in classes of their own. I do believe that a .338-08 would make one heck of a marketing success while essentially duplicating the performance of lighter-bullet .358 loads. Why not?
 
Badgerarms. I believe A-Square makes rifles and ammo in .338-06, which IMHO makes it only a "semi-wildcat." They sell loaded ammo as well.
There was a greta article a while back, by the late Finn Aagaard, comparing the .338-06 and .35 Whelan. If memory serves, his final thoughts were if you had, you really did not need the other. I still got the impression that he favored the .338-06.
One of the great African cartridges was the .318 Rigby, which, if you compare the ballistics, is almost the same as the .338-06, with the Rigby being a .330 diameter compared to the .338 diameter of the .338-06.
Dang it all. I want one.
I made a comment earlier in this thread, about how much power Jack O'Connor had in making or breaking a rifle or cartridge. Seems like there is an article on O'Connor's last hunt, where the author said basically the same thing. Jack did not likt the .358 Win. and was not too kind to the .35 Whelan when it was a wildcat. Fact is, I wonder if Jack liked anything in .35 caliber, and could this be part of the reason for the unpopularity of the .35's? Something to think about.
Keith. Keep an eye on the extractor on your Mod.7. I have a Rem. 660 in .308, and the extractor gave up the ghost on me abour a year and a half ago. I've had a new one put in, but I watch it closely now. I do have to admit, that the rifle had over 5,000 rounds through it when it quit. Fortunately, it was at the range, and not on a hunt. I guess that is why I am so strong on controlled feed.
Paul B.
Paul B.
 
Doesn't Barnes make a .35 caliber bullet at 250 gns or higher? Also, there has to be some cast bullets (w/ GC's of course) that would be able to get you the bulk that you require.

I too lament the obscureness of the larger calibers. I've read Keith and Rourke (and O'Conner for that matter), and it's really hard to find fault in his (Keith's)logic that large caliber - heavy bullets are the way to go with larger and more dangerous North American game. Penetration is the most important concideration. With Keith, it was always - the bigger the caliber, the better! If he were still around, I imagine that he'd be on the 50 BMG kick too.

My next bolt gun (in the works) will be a 98 Mauser in 35 Whelen, and I'm still trying to talk myself out of the Ackley Improved version. If we few are the only ones with any sense in these matters... then so be it!!!
 
Would the 375WCF count? If so just picked one up in the Winchester Big BOre. Sweet little gun

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SASS member
BCSS member
PSG Rod&Gun Club
NRA member
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul B.:
Badgerarms. I believe A-Square makes rifles and ammo in .338-06, which IMHO makes it only a "semi-wildcat." They sell loaded ammo as well.
Paul B.[/quote]

Of course, I was talking about the 338-08 but the same rules apply as it is merely a shortened form of the -06 wildcat. Still, it's still true that having one would negate the requirement for the other. If one had a .338-08, one would not need the 358 winchester. Still, given the popularity of the .338 and the unfair bias agains tthe .358, I'd have to say that the .338 would be more successful. Especially if they could chamber good, short-action rifles such as the Remington Model 7 and Savage 10 and market them.

I'd be really torn if Finn had indeed been the downfall of the 35's but his opinion sure didn't put much of a halt to the 35 Whelen, did it? Maybe. After reading the HATEFUL, yet insightful article in Handloader, I was left to wonder if you aren't correct, Paul. Sad fact if it's true. Still, I am of the opinion that the .358 Winchester fills a HUGE hole between the .308 and 375 H&H that is not being filled properly by the .375 WCF or any other caliber very well.
 
Badgerarms. OOPS! I misread your .338-08 to be .338-06. I'm familiar with that round. I have the original article by Roy Smith, who I believe was the originator of the cartridge. I'd like one of those as well, but I can only afford to feed one wildcat at a time.

Unkel Gilbey. I think Barnes may go as high as 300 gr. in the .35 caliber. Speer, Hornady, and Nosler all make 250 gr. bullets. My gripe was in the lack of factory supplied 250 gr. bullets in the Whelan. For what it's worth, I found a partial box of Hornady 275 gr. RN bullets at a gun show. They have not been made for a long time. It's one wicked looking bullet.
I'd also consider not going the Ackley improved version. One of the writers in RIFLE Magazine, I think it was, said that if he had to do it over again, he'd go with the standard version, rather than the improved. He did not feel it was beneficial enough to go improved. The regular Whelan is potent enough. I agree.
Paul B.
 
I'm partial to the 250 Grain .358 bullets. I think any higher and you might just as well get the 375 H&H as it will be more effective in the heavier weights. Of coruse, I mostly shoot the 358 Winchester. A 300 grainer in the 35 Whelen or 358 Norma might just be the ticket. Too long for my 350 though.
 
I have started thinking about the 358 Norma so I am bringing this thread back to top.

Anyone have any comments to add?

Has anyone used 250 or 280 Swift in the Norma?
 
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