How many rounds for proof?

Chernobyl was safe,
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Chernobyl WAS safe, the complex ran safely for many years.

Until, the COMMUNIST in charge (who was an electrical engineer, NOT a Nuclear engineer) decided they needed to run certain "tests". Tests that the Nuclear engineers said were risky, and that the experienced operators said were DANGEROUS!!!!

In America, and nearly all the rest of the world, workers could have refused to perform the dangerous tests. They could have walked off the job, if that was what it took.

In the Soviet Union, this was NOT an option. Simply put, the greatest nuclear disaster to date happened because of Communism, the Soviet System, and placing an under qualified but politically acceptable person in charge, who's orders could not be disobeyed.

How many rounds before a pistol is "reliable"???
Opinions clearly vary.

One mag load. Assuming the mag is proven reliable. A pistol will either work with specific ammo/load or it won't.
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I would accept this for testing a particular load in a pistol of already proven reliability. I would not accept this as good enough in a new, unproven gun.

A few years ago, a friend bought a Kahr compact .45ACP (I forget the specific model). The manual recommended firing 200 rounds before judging the reliability of the gun. He could not do that amount of firing, because he was recovering from surgery on his hands, so I got to do the honors. 200rnds of ball, 50 JHP. Total malfunctions, 4. NONE within the first 50 rounds. 3 between rnds 50 and 150, one more before round 200. ALL were failure to fully lock shut. No failures during the 50 rnd JHP shoot.

Another thing learned during the break in was that the sharp plastic checkering on the backstrap of the pistol was a very effective flesh (& cheese) grater. A strip of electrical tape solved that particular issue, BEFORE blood actually started to flow...:rolleyes:

Another thing to remember is that new guns are NOT shipped lubricated and ready for use. The oils and greases they are shipped with are PRESERVATIVES, not lubricants. They MAY lubricate the gun well enough for it to work, for a time , but that is not the reason they are there. Clean and properly lubricate a new gun, before use, otherwise you are not getting a true impression of the mechanism's proper function.

another point is doing the break in shooting with cheap ammo. Understandable, and economic, BUT, possibly giving you failures that are the result of cheap ammo, and not the gun itself.

Starting with the gun in a normal carry/ready condition, meaning clean, cold, and properly lubed, a couple hundred bobble free rounds would give me confidence that and much smaller number of rounds I might need to use in any conceivable defense situation would be trouble free.
 
The question of when a gun is a reliable weapon for self defense has two sides.
1. Is the gun mechanically reliable to use in defense of your life?
2. Are you familiar enough with the gun and the means of carrying it to adequately use it in defense of your life?
The answer to both of these questions should be yes before you strap it on and head out into the world. I may just be slow but the second question takes training and practice. In a weekend primary training camp you use up at least 500 rounds. You train under some basic conditions that you are likely to run into. After your weekend at camp you need to practice what you have learned with your gun and the way you carry it. You practice firing from different positions with both and each hand. When you are satisfied with your skill level and level of mental preparedness then you can answer the second question with a "yes".
The next step is intermediate training - a week of intensive training followed by more practice and then advanced training.
There is very little about carrying for defense that rests on the serviceability of the firearm when compared to the personal readiness of you with that gun. You can be satisfied that your gun is reliable fairly easily but until you are reliable with the gun you are not ready to carry it for your personal protection or in defense of others.
 
There is another side SHOOTIST! Is it big and heavy enough to cold cock your adversary in the event there is a malfunction? :)

My 1911 fills the bill!
 
If he is close enough to hit with my gun I want a refund on those training classes! :)
I wonder if my disability would allow me to start shooting sooner... after all I am afraid for my life every time I stop at a stop light and there is a car behind me. (that is the cause of my back injury and two surgeries) A six year old girl with a hockey stick could put me down for the count. I am too old and banged up to run or fight, what does that leave me?
 
There is a reason for keeping a backup gun in several places. Each of my placed revolvers have a speed loader. I can reach a backup gun easily except for one room.

Shootist, you're telling me that a person must go through thousands of rounds, days of combat training, and maybe a few thousand dollars of training costs before that person carries a gun? That unless a person does all of that his life will be in jeopardy?

Do you seriously mean that a person has to spend three, four thousand dollars before exposure to outside danger?

Your statement reminds me of the organic food debate. If you can't afford whole foods, should you stop eating?

Police level combat training and gear that may cost two or more months of income for a lot of Americans is not at all necessary for a woman to defend againsta rapist or mugger. In the event that a person finds himself at the mall with a active shooter, having drawn the shortest straw in the known universe, the general thought is to run, and a few thousand dollars worth of gun camps won't change Billy the couch potato into a sprinter.
 
Shootist, general consensus here also opines that just because a bonk on the head will probably blow out that bulging aneurysm on your occipital lobe and leave you dead where you fall, no, you don't get a pass to defend your own life as you truly believe the risk to be. With the holes in my head I can't afford a bit with a stick, but if I threaten or use force based on just what "might" happen, trial by a hostile jury and prison time is what I will deserve and receive.

I advise that you refrain from defending your life and safety until you consult a lawyer, and by all means, ask the bad guy if you can set up a live stream to the police station before he goes to work. Your freedom, assets, financial future,reputation, etc, are all at risk if you so much as brandish and threaten.

Go ahead and carry,but be prepared to face the court of not only the justice system but public opinion at any time regarding that choice. Listening to some of the stories, I believe that I might be a lot happier if I just give my gun to the bad guy and beg for death rather than face the consequences of preserving my life from that same bad guy.
 
Brian,
That's not at all what I am saying. I am attempting to point out that having a gun that you trust to work is only part of the readiness formula. I carried for a couple of years before I went through my first training. What I learned in that first session was that I did not know what was really required. I learned some legal aspects and I learned that I could not access my gun when I was seated whether it was a chair or a car. If I was crouched behind the front wheels of a car I had to straighten up to get my gun out, exposing myself to fire.
What I am saying is; It's a good idea to get a weekend of training for $500 to $800 plus the cost of 500 rounds of ammo to get a hint of what you don't know. Going to a classroom presentation on the legalities of self defense and the aftermath of a self defense shooting is another good idea. It is relatively inexpensive at $120 to $200 for the 2 day training. It might also be good to start thinking about insurance. For as little as $80 a year you can get pretty good self defense insurance and the training it includes.
We think nothing of buying a gun, then reloading gear for it, sights or a scope, and working up a load for it, yet spending less than the cost of a rifle or scope you can get training from professional instructors.
 
44, I know you well enough to take you fully at your word about Chernobyl, but you must agree that the designers failed to protect the reactor against idiot's, and while it was proven safe as used, we could never prove it against off label use.

Lithium has been"proven" safe and effective over nearly a century, but it wasn't in my case.

The side saddle spare tanks on the Ford was "proven" by billions of safe miles driven, but it took decades and a few dead people before the proof was shot down in flames. Proof is relative to a lot of things, and a moving target, the gray haired old men who declare that extensive testing with positive findings are no match for a weeping survivor and a hostile jury of either the courts, or the court of public opinion.

I'm one who almost never considers statistical proof to be exactly that. In many cases, like the trucks, proof of safety is almost entirely based on supposition based on observation.

My wife once challenged me on "the gravitational theory".

No, dear, it has never been proven that we aren't being held down on the ground by angels. Maybe that's really how it works.
 
I agree there, shootist. Nobody should stop thinking and practicing. If we stop thinking, if self awareness and questioning aren't part of every minute that you are carrying, that's when you adjust the glock in the waistband of your sweat pants and shoot yourself in the gonads at home depot.

I once had a dozen or so people mocking me because I suggested the old fashioned shoulder holster, every one of the group was infatuated with IWB carry.

No matter how much I practice, I have never been able to draw from my waistband when in my car, at dinner, etc. One guy argued that I sweep my left arm as I draw. Well, so what? My finger isn't on the trigger. Anyway, is that any worse than sweeping my thigh?
 
Both my carry/home defense guns have over 700 flawless rounds through them. But I started using for carry at 150.
 
ShootistPRS said:
If he is close enough to hit with my gun I want a refund on those training classes! :)
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Not sure if the smile face indicates sarcasm or you're serious.
So I'll just assume you're serious.

If im walking towards you on the street what do you do? Hide in the bushes till I pass? Cross over to the other side?

What do you do at the store waiting in line? do you let people go ahead of you until the store is devoid of anyone wanting to check out?

There are many times where you are forced in close contact with people and attackers aren't gong to pull their gun 50 feet away.. they're gonna close the space first, Yet we can't treat every other human being as a high priority threat.

Maybe Im doing something wrong so please educate me, Maybe there is a better way Im missing.
 
If you are walking toward me on a street then I am far from home and I will assess your intent through posture, breathing rate and your involuntary muscle movement. This can be done at a distance that will allow me to cross the street, walk into a store, or look you in the eye and say, "Howdy!" with a smile on my face.
I can't remember the last time I stood in line at a store but there are, as stated above, involuntary actions that are taken when a human intends violence. At that point you can disconnect or ready yourself to engage. I would make sure to make eye contact and attempt to diffuse the situation while preparing to take cover or engage.
There are very few times when I am forced in close contact with anyone but friends and family. Most of them carry guns too.
I can't say that you are doing something wrong but I moved from a large, heavily populated, city to a rural setting. I find that the slower pace and clean air tend to keep folks friendlier. Even the local cops join the community picnic in the park. I find the county cops are friendly in spite of the fact that there are too few to cover the miles of the county. I know three of them fairly well. I introduced myself to my neighbors when I moved in and voluntarily help them when I can. I have been a machinist, educator, and a minister and have learned a great deal about people. I will admit that I learned even more in classes relating to the use of self defense. If you feel that you can do more to make yourself safer then I would recommend classes that include interpersonal relations, sociology in the US, psychology and physiology of violent behavior, and to get together more with friends and family.

The smiley face was showing sarcasm and jest. A failure on my part is no reason to blame the professionals that have tried to teach me. Even though we sit in the same class, with the same instructor, we each learn something different. What we learn is not usually what we were taught.
 
I have been known at times to look quite unpleasant. In fact, I am the reason people cross the street. It's mostly the Clint Eastwood eyes, then the fact that I don't walk around with a slouch, more of military posture.

Add a really nasty frown and my wife starts telling me to ease up and take a pill.
 
Lonesome roads are the only kind
I ever travel
Empty rooms are the only place
I ever stay
I'm just a face out in the crowd that looks
Like trouble
Poor ol' worthless me is the only friend
I ever made
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Me and Dwight Yoakum.

Try sleeping in a door way and not bathing for 6 months or so. Folks won't want to stand next in line to ya either.

tipoc
 
Never had to do that to ensure my privacy. Just yesterday I walked into my occasionally visited bar, and a guy yelled at me to come sit by him at the bar. We chatted for a few minutes, but the very second I took out my cigar and clipped it, he said "are you going to smoke that?" He went and found a booth.

A person doesn't have to look like a medieval gargoyle. If a person can just avoid looking like a victim that's more than half of what is needed. My face might scare children and teenage girls, but many other people will see it as a challenge.

I've had people run away screaming just because they saw my chest hair
 
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For my G 19 it took 3 trips, one per week, to my range shooting 2 boxes of target ammo and 1 mag each time loaded with my SD ammo then I put my GP100 away.

For my G 43 it took 5 trips, one per week and a box of target ammo plus 1 mag of SD ammo.The first week I had a problem with one of my mags. That one I tossed. One time and it's gone.

I alternate between the two. My target ammo costs me $8.99/box of 50 and that's 124gr. lawman. My SD is 124 gr. Gold dots or Fed. HST. they run between $20-$22/box of 50. I will only buy American made ammo.

Each time after, I field stripped, cleaned and lightly oiled each Glock.
 
For me:

Glock - zero.
Sig - zero.
HK - zero.
Walther - zero.
Probably some other brands too.

For you: whatever number puts your mind at ease.

Stuff fails. Whether it happens on round 13, 130, 1300, 13000, etc., you never see it coming, it is not predictable, and usually happens at the worst time. Always have a backup plan if possible and avoid gunfights whenever you can. Has anybody run clinical trials to give us solid statistical evidence as to when a {enter your favorite make and model) will malfunction or fail? No. Everything else is seat of the pants, rule of thumb, arbitrary, armchair pseudo-science, feel-goodism, you name it. It's not meant to be a critique, because you are the one carrying your weapon and not me, but don't succumb to a false sense of security of a successful 100, 200, 500, or 1500 rounds.
 
SP,
Had I not tested "all" of my magazines that I bought when I got my G43, I would not have known that one of my magazines was defective. That would have been one heck of an epitaph. You buy a car and you test drive it, NO???. You buy shoes, you try them on?? etc. etc. You buy a gun and don't you make sure it works properly? Some guns are odd. They only like certain ammo and some like my glocks will take anything. This critique is not to harm nor offend. It is strictly used to be a learning tool.
 
Doc, no offense taken whatsoever, and please don't get me wrong. If you have the opportunity to "test" your firearm, then by all means do so to at least validate the absence of any immediately present manufacturing defect. The original question was about a round count to "proof", and I am suggesting that certain contemporary combat pistols are just as reliable in a statistically valid sense from round 1 as any subsequent round up until a failure that would be considered premature.
 
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