how many feel a certain cartridge is more/less accurate than other

R

riddleofsteel

New member
OK here is something to chew on:

in a recent post someone quoted the typical gun rag statement. "the .40 auto is inaccurate in every gun it is chambered in, so the problem is the cartridge not the guns."


well, how many think that a certain handgun cartridge is more accurate or has an inherent accuracy advantage over other handgun cartridges?

we are not talking guns here..just the cartridge.

i will start. i have a T/C Contender with barrels in .40 auto, .45 ACP, 10mm, 9mm, .44 mag and .45 Colt. over the years i have failed to notice ANY INHERENT difference in accuracy between the cartridges. if i pay attention and taylor my loads for the individual barrel they will all shoot sub M.O.A. at any reasonable distance.
for years i have heard that the .45 Colt is inaccurate. WRONG. many revolvers chambered in .45 Colt have strange sized forceing cones and bore diameters. if you slug the barrel, measure the cone and size the bullets right they will sing.
my T/C barrel in .40 auto will perform as well group to group as the .45 Colt,.45 ACP,10mm, 9mm or .44 mag barrels. all will shoot sub MOA groups. many early guns in .40 auto had barrel twists designed for 180 grain + bullets. back then we thought that was what would rule. today some of those same barrels have trouble stabilizing 135 or 155 grain bullets. i had to change the barrel on my first edition S$W 4006 to make it as super accurate as it is today. my new issue Kahrs in .40 auto i would shoot against any production .45 or 9mm of similar size and construction.

in short i fail to perceive any concept of internal or external ballistics that would make a .40 caliber straight wall cartridge inherently inaccurate. can you enlighten me?? the .40 auto has a capacity to bore ratio very similar to other cartridges in its class thought of as being "ACCURATE." if we are talking about the barrels or guns the cartridge is chambered in then we have another discussion.
what i am saying is that all things being equal one handgun cartridge is about as accurate as any other.

this is for purposes of discussion only. i realize that there VERY few of us that can shoot well enough from an unsupported semiauto at self defense rates of fire to even notice a difference if there was one.

any takers?
 
Yep, some cartridges are known to be less or more inherently accurate than others.

Generally, though, most cartridges have about the same inherent accuracy level.

The .40 is one of those cartridges that just doesn't seem to be all that inherently accurate.

Could it be because of the guns themselves, or some dynamic in the cartridge? In certain cases, as with the .45 Colt, it is the gun.

The 9mm has also never had a stellar reputation for accuracy potential.

Others, though, like the .45, do seem to have high accuracy potential.

I THINK that some of it, at least in short-cased rounds, might be a combination of pressure and bullet length.

It seems that there is a curve between length of the case, the diameter of the bullet, and its length.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
I don't feel that the 40S&W is inaccurate by any means. It has more recoil than the 45ACP so when some people think of it as an "inbetween round" and mess up, they tend to believe it is the round.
 
I think Riddle pretty much covers it. I think tailoring of the load and the gun to each other will result in consistant accuracy, most of the time. There are some guns that are more difficult than others. Bbl change not all that easy for most folk. Actual bbl diameter varies a lot more than most realize. Twist rate, bullet weight and velocity all intertwine to make it sweet or sour. Some like em hot and others like em mild.

Sam...recoil is so us ol folks know it went off. Eh?
 
I do think there are cartridges that are more accuate than others. One only has to look at a trajectory chart to see that some calibers simply shoot "flatter" than others. This is even more evident when comparing rifle cartridges. In handgun calibers the .41 magnum display's a flatter trajectory and therefore improved accuracy than any other I have found.
I'm not familiar enough with cartidge/bullet dynamics to understand why this is. Perhaps Mike's therory regarding case length vs. bullet length is the answer.

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Gunslinger

I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!
 
The .40 inaccurate ? I don't think so. My Beretta 96 Brigadier Inox is just as accurate as my Sig P220.

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More accurate at what range? Some really killer loads at 25yds seem to open up beyond that range. Mild 158gr .38spec comes to mind.

Yet flatter doesn't work all the time either, the .44 Russian bout as fast as a weak side thrown brick, yet it was often a winner out to 75 n 100yds. It did seem to open up tween those ranges tho.

My .44spec snubbie will do one ragged hole with stoutish loads but is a tad loose with cowboy loads. I'm thinkin it's cause the twist rate is same as .44mag bbls.

Sam....well, I thought this was the right road.
 
i really think that the reason people say the .45 ACP has great accuracy potential is that MANY of the .45's people keep and shoot have been "accurized", gunsmithed and customized. the shakey, lose 1911's are quickly put of the collection shelf as relics or sent to a smith.
other .45's such as Sigs, S&W's and Glocks do not, in my opinion, shoot any better overall than thier 9mm or .40 counterparts.
i also agree that the more "shove" of the .45 is more condusive to bullseye shooting than the sharper snap of a .40.
of course we pay for that with a heavier gun and fewer rounds.

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
 
Riddle, I wonder if the 380 ACP would be as accurate as these major calibers. Other maligned cartridges would be the anemic 38 S&W. I wonder if a contender would shoot these equally well as 45 ACP.
 
I should have clarified my statements a little...

Inaccurate is, well, inaccurate in this sense. If you get right down to it, ANY cartridge is inaccurate because they won't put bullet after bullet through the exact same hole as the previous bullet.

Less or more accurate would be a better way of expressing it.

Also, I'm basing my statements on not only my personal experiences, but also those of the ammunition and component manufacturers, who, through lots of testing with different firearms and also universal receivers, have found some cartridges to have a greater potential for accuracy than others.

The .45 is one of those cartridges, aside from the fact that it is often found in fully tricked out guns.

I think though, where this REALLY comes into play is with rifle cartridges. There it is very clear that design parameters can affect a cartridge's overall accuracy potential.

Among those are length of case neck, case volumn, and angle of shoulder.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Generally speaking, the lower the pressure and velocity, the lower the potential for variation round to round. Also true of Larger bores, Greater powder loads, and heavier bullets. Here's why:

The larger bullets are less finicky when it comes to manufacturing tolerances. For instance, a .002" varience in bullet diameter will end up being twice the difference in a .22 as it would be in a 45 in terms of percentages. The same is true of pressures, larger powder charges, etc. To take this to its obscene example, it's easier to make sure something is 1000" long +/- 1" than it is to make something 1" +/- .001"

Therefore... the .45 ACP has more accuracy POTENTIAL than the 40 ACP which has more than the 9mm, etc. The 45 is really a very accurate round on all counts. That having been said, the differences are rather minute. I feel that the most important factor is pressure. Higher pressure cartridges are just more finicky.

NO, VELOCITY DOES NOT EQUAL ACCURACY. A faster bullet simply makes a round less succeptible to wind drift and range estimation. Groups at a Given range will be equal. Since this is the handguns forum, I'll say that wind drift is NOT a significant factor given the short time-of-flight of hadgun bullets. Just common sense, here, people.

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God made us in his own image.
Thomas Jefferson made us free.
John Browning made us equal.

Without Browning, we might not know about the other two...
 
Hello. I, too, believe that some rounds are more inherently accurate than others in general. However, that does NOT mean that most rounds' accuracy potentials cannot be improved through handloading or when commercial manufacturers learn what works best in whatever cartridge or are encouraged to do so. Today's commercial 9mm rounds are usually more accurate than those of 20 years ago and this is probably due to the early 80s police move to 9mm. Because of the forty-five's use in competitions over the years, several ammo makers make accurate ammo even called "target ammunition."

I have not found .40S&W, in general, to be all that accurate, but have found some factory loads and some handloads to be quite accurate. (For my purposes, "accurate" is about 2" @ 25yds from a rest.)

Therefore, with all the human error present in shooting handguns, while I believe that some cartridges are more inherently accurate than others, I also believe that practically any round can be "made to shoot" when the desire and knowledge to do so is present.

Let us assume the following: Tomorrow, all of the following come into existence: .38 Spec, .357 Magnum, .44 Special, .45 Colt, .45 ACP, .40 S&W, and 9x19mm. Starting out "life" on the same day, I wonder which would be the most inherently accurate? Would there be a difference? If so, how long would it be before the accurate loads were known?

Best.
 
I have taken part in a discussion similar to this on other boards and was declared an "Idiot" (with a capital 'I') because of the comments I made. Maybe I am :), but my opinion remains the same.

It is my opinion that the whole inherent accuracy thing is overblown. To beleive that there is some magic combination of bullet diameter, bullet length, case length, internal case dimensions, etc. that produces measurably better accuracy than any other combination is a little suspect. Physics works the same regardless. Of course you can't shove a 300 grain bullet into a .38 case and expect it to be as accurate as a standard .45 acp 230 grainer (there are limits imposed by physics as well).

My point is this, if you were to take two bullets of different calibers with identical sectional densities and identical designs (identical ratio of bearing surfaces, same ballistic coefficient, etc., the wieght being irrelevant IF all other things are equal) and push them out of barrels of the same length, which are made to the same tolerances (rifling appropriate for the bullet weight) at comparable speeds you would not determine a statistically significant difference between the two.

In my opinion accuracy is determined by a combination of a good barrel and a cartridge that is tuned to each barrels harmonics (i.e. shoots good in the particular gun).

When it comes right down to it the case, primer, and gunpowder simply serve to push the bullet down the barrel of a gun. I don't believe a bullet cares if the case behind it is a necked case or straight walled.

I might get flak again, but until someone offers me an explanation of why physics works differently with certain calibers I'll keep on being an idiot.

Shake
 
The correct answer; NO, there are only accurate guns.

To believe otherwise is to admit you think the world is flat.

Comments?

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"All my ammo is factory ammo"
 
YES, there are definite differences esp in rifle calibres, hence the creation of the 6mmPPC. maybe still the most accurate of any cartridge in the world [tightest group ever recorded IIRC.] For years the BR community has been producing excellent rifles so I believe it is way more than just a coincidence that as soon as the 6PPC showed up accuracy got better, the odds that suddenly the rifles got more accurate at that precise time is too much for me to believe.

As to more mundane rounds it is generally recognized by the precision shooters that a 308 win will be more accurate than a 30-06 even at same speed and with same bullet.I think it had something to do with the longer case being detrimental to the ignition process. I wish it were other wise because I am an 06 fan but based on what I have read it aint. Just my .02

WESHOOT2 Since I am at the centre of the universe I never see the edge of the earth :D



[This message has been edited by oberkommando (edited September 13, 2000).]
 
I don't own any, but I've heard that the bottle-necked cartridges like .357SIG and .400CORBON are more accurate than straight-walled cartridges. I guess because they position the bullet in the chamber better?
 
Shake,

There's only one fly in your ointment, and it's a Physics fly.

Even if you push your two theoretical bullets out at the same velocity, and they have the same form factor, sectional density, ballistic coefficient, there's one thing that's going to be VERY different.

That's the static gas pressure that is acting on the base of the bullet.

As I've alluded elsewhere, case shape, both interior and exterior, can have a dramatic effect on the pressure wave that the bullet rides.

120 years ago rifle cartridges were often offered in both bottlenecked and straight walled versions -- Identical powder charges, identical bullets, identical rifles -- to cater to those who felt that one version was more accurate than the other.

Again, the ammo and components manufacturers, in their testing, have noted differences in the accuracy potential of different cartridges during their testing, which is a lot more extensive than any of us could ever hope to do.



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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
i submit that any supposed difference caused by case,neck,pressure wave difference would be far too small to notice in a manually fired handgun. at least i have never noticed it. those differences are easier to notice in rifles. BUT.
as far as rifle cartridges i say again:

6mm ppc, .308 and other "benchrest" cartridges are chambered in maxed out in "benchrest" guns. put the .308 and the 30-06 in equal/identical rifles and some 30-06's will out shoot the .308's. i know i have done it.

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
 
Riddle,

That's why I've pointed out twice that the ammo and components manufacturers are making these findings in the course of their work.

I don't think (my interpretation) that the original question was limiting this question to what we could observe in our firearms, but to what may or may not exist overall.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
BB,

The 400 CB gains its accuracy in part from the 45-OD-sized barrel with a .356" bore. That's one stiff tube, eh?

oberkommando,

Define center?

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"all my ammo is mobius ammo"
 
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