How low to go with Cowboy Loads

D

DMY

New member
I bought my first 500-round box of 125 gr RNFP coated Cowboy Bullets (BN-12) from Missouri Bullet Company and have a second box on the way. I loaded them on the light end of the spectrum which was:
a) 4.8 grs of W231
b) 3.3 grs of Bullseye and
c) 3.4 grs of TightGroups.

All shot fine and not signs of problems. I am trying to fine tune one or more loads to get better accuracy, although my initial tests were not too bad. The W231 which I used was over 20 years old and sounded like a squib load when I shot the first round. I have since purchased, but have not used a new container of HP-38.

My initial question is: how low can I safely go? Can I and should I go below the light end of the loading spectrum with this bullet and these powders.

My second question is: how high can I safely go? Perhaps halfway up the loading spectrum?

While I do like to test bullets, I usually load at least 50 of the same load at one time rather than 6 or 12 and inspect the barrel for leading. I would hate to load 50 and then have to pull 49 of them because they were too light or too hot.
 
I'm not really sure how to proceed here with a constructive reply; are you trying for a low velocity cowboy load or best accuracy at any velocity? I assume your bullets are for .38 Specials, and as a designated cowboy bullet, that the same loading data would apply the same as for any other bullet of the same weight. In that case be guided by the loading manuals in regards to starting and max loads. From the Lyman manual your 231 load is above mid range, the bullseye load below mid range, and the Tightgroup load even lower than starting load. My guess is that you are trying to go as low as you can, keeping with a cowboy load, and with good accuracy. In that case just keep testing until that is determined but don't try each load with 50 test rounds, 20 or even less should suffice until good accuracy starts to materialize. When going too low, accuracy will really start to drop off. But I'm really not sure if these comments are anything what you are looking for. Are you matching a cowboy bullet as a low velocity cowboy round, or the best accuracy with the cowboy bullet at any velocity?
 
Best powder for light Cowboy loads is TRAIL BOSS.

Low recoil and the powder fills the case so you shouldn't be able to double charge.
 
You are going about your cowboy reloading wrong. Check the regulations of the group you want to shoot with. Then load to their maximum specifications. You have to have enough energy to trip the reactive targets that they use at the shooting distances they set up at.
 
More detail

Sorry, I wasn't clear with my first post. I am not trying to meet any prescribed velocities. I am only punching paper and trying to develop an accurate load to shoot through two 2" and 3" Colts that I don't want to beat up. The specific amounts of powder are the amounts which my fixed rotor RCBS Lil Dandy throws. These loads perform about the same as my 148 gr HBWCS and 125 gr plated Berry's. I was hoping for tighter groups which I generally find with lighter loads.
 
If the WW231 was stored in a controlled environment then is should be OK to use. I have a partial can that I bought when it first came out. I believe it was a replacement for WW230P. I have some of that too.

I still use it on occasion and it goes "bang" as loud as the rest of them.

Also, I enjoy loading some of the cowboy stuff with black powder (not any substitutes) and that is a good change of pace.

Do you know how to determine when a smokeless powder goes bad?
 
I like my light loads to reach at least 700 fps with cast bullets (preferably 750 fps or more) from a 4" barrel. From there I'd work up a little in case you find something you like better.

As far as specific powders and loads, I don't have enough experience with cast bullets in the 38 Special, especially 125 gr. But the loading data in manuals or from the powder manufacturer's websites should give you an idea of appropriate powders and powder charges to achieve those levels. Just keep in mind that your 2" or 3" barreled Colts won't achieve the same velocity levels as the published loads that typically use 4" to 8" barrels for their data.

I wouldn't go below the published cowboy starting loads due to the possibility of a bullet not exiting the barrel. This is less likely with cast bullets than jacketed ones, but it is still a possibility.
 
With a 125 lead bullet (I have not tried coated) I went down to just under three grains of Titegroup. They ran around 700 FPS, depending on the gun. It's a very mild load, about like shooting a 22 LR. Just take care when doing this. Powders get less consistent when loaded to pressures that low, so you can run in to a worse case scenario where a normally OK combo sticks a bullet in the barrel.
 
OK, we now have the picture. You are not after a cowboy round per se, but rather a suitable round with the components on hand that just includes a cowboy designed bullet. You didn't indicate if either of the three loads seemed to be better than the others. Note that the 4.8 231 load is close to max (5.1) according to Lyman. The 3.3 Bullseye is a little below mid range (about 3.7), and the Tightgroup load, even though below starting load, could still be hotter than the other two and will increase significantly at only the starting load (3.8). So I would suggest proceeding cautiously with Tightgroup. The Bullseye load is probably way below 700 fps in the short barrel and might provide more leeway in further load development. The 231 load is close to max so you would probably work downward from there. A matter of testing and hoping to arrive at the best. Sometimes it can be frustrating. With my S&W mdl 60, stout loads work out the best but they can rattle the gun as well as the shooter.
 
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I have a friend that shoot cowboy action, one story he likes to tell is about a side match at one of the matches he went to, where it was two shots from a 38spl derringer at a 3/8" plywood target painted up as something I forget. In any case, timer beeps and bang, bang...no command so he turns his head to look for the RO and he is on the ground holding his groin area.

The load was so weak it couldn't go through 3/8" plywood and bounced back hitting the RO in the family jewels.
 
Cowboy shooting, SASS, has a minimum power floor of 60 (bullet weight times muzzle velocity) and a minimum velocity of 400 fps and a maximum velocity of 1,000 fps (1,400 fps for rifle). Lead bullets only, and shooters can be liable for "insufficient ammunition" and can be instantly DQ'd and ejected from a match if someone is injured as a result. Most powder makers have specifically recommended cowboy action loads, so start with the website data for minimum charge weight and OAL, and go from there to see what's most accurate.
 
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We’re all assuming your loading 38 special, but that has never been clarified.

1. How low can you go? You shouldn’t have any problems going to the bottom of the min/max range. Plenty of people have gone lower. The biggest thing to watch for is a stuck bullet. How low you can go is partially going to depend on the gun. A longer barrel is going to have a better chance of pressure running out and sticking a bullet. A larger forcing cone gap is going to allow more gas to escape.

2. How high can you go? Why do you think you can only go half way up the loading spectrum? 38 special is a fairly low pressure round. Unless you’re shooting a 100 year old family heirloom, you should be able to load right up to the max suggested loads without any safety issues. You might get some leading but maybe not.
 
Thanks

Thanks all. Good input as always. Yes, I am shooting .38 specials. Yes, I checked the first shot to make sure they exited the barrels. It was easy since I was shooting at a new target. Interestingly, to my subjective hands, it seems the TightGroup load (below minimum) had as much recoil as the mid-range Bullseye load. All of my loads using my 25 year old can of W231 have very little recoil. I don't remember it being that way when I first bought it and loaded with it back in the late 1980s. I just bought a container of HP-38 and am interested to see whether there is more bang with the identical charge.

As far as accuracy is concerned, my best group was out of my 3" barrel which was 5 shots in 0.9" at 35' using the Bullseye load. My other loads out of my 3" barrel were 1.5" - 3" at that distance. My 2" shot around 3.25" at that distance. I always give my guns the benefit of the doubt because my vision does not allow me to have a crystal clear sight picture of the front sight and target.

Dufus: I remember reading somewhere that when a powder goes bad, it has a funny smell. If I remember correctly, it was a vinegar smell, but I am not positive. I know mine did not have that smell and I was very conscious with my first loads using this old powder to make sure it went bang and that the bullet exited the barrel.

AZ Shooter: Thanks for the tip about Trail Boss. Never tried it. Might pick up a container the next time I see it.

Thanks again everyone. Have a good weekend.
 
Per AZ's suggestion, should you try Trail Boss powder, note that this is a completely different breed from standard powders and plays by different rules. It is a fast burning powder but is much more forgiving than standard powders inasmuch as it would be very difficult to get an overload. It is designed to produce mild loads with mild recoil and is the standard powder for cowboy action shooting. Hodgdon's recipe for using the powder is this: Maximum load, which will still be mild, is defined as filling the case to where the base of the bullet will be after it is seated. Minimum load is then defined as 70% of the weight of the maximum load. However, if starting with minimum load, do not load very many since they will be extremely powder-puff and you will want to start moving upwards immediately. Hodgdon says not to compress the powder but attempts to find out why not from Hodgdon have been unsuccessful. I have not used Trail Boss with handgun loads but do use a considerable amount for rifle loading, always maximum loads, and find it very attractive. For those heavy mag calibers like .458s that you might not shoot much with standard loads, Trail Boss is the answer.

Late addition:
I should probably add that Trail Boss powder will probably not be included with loading data in the manuals so be guided by the above loading formulas. And bullet weight does not matter, the same applies whether the weight is 150 gr or 300 gr.
 
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However the OP doesn't have any original ballistics to try to duplicate. And with 1000 of the 125 gr cowboy bullets, there is certainly some incentive, even some pressure, to develop a good load for them.
 
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You're right, Condor, and I think you are giving good advice.
Oddly, I have never used Bullseye, so have no opinion on that powder.
I have had good results with W-231 powder and like it.
I have had most excellent results with Titegroup and prefer it for light loads.
I do not like how Trailboss meters with my equipment at all. Even so, I think you can obtain good results with any of these powders.
It sounds like the desired results here would make a good rabbit load, though targets are intended.
And, I apologize for my previous, drive-by, comment that wasn't really helpful.
 
I DO shoot cowboy with those exact same bullets. I load 2.8g of 700x or Clays. 600fps +/-.

Never checked for accuracy. The targets, as Trump would say, are huuuuuugge!

I do not like Trail Boss in .38. It's too slow a powder and won't burn clean at the low loads.
 
Sawdust:
Actually Trail Boss is a fast burning powder. Check its position well up into the upper half of the list if you have a burn rate chart available. But I agree that there would likely be a big difference in efficiency or performance between a minimal amount in a .38 case compared to larger amounts in .375 cases for example. For reduced rifle loads and accuracy with the right bullets it's the real thing. I use mostly hard cast bullets to reduce barrel wear. Only problem has been with 6.5mm/.264 calibers where 120 gr bullets will not stabilize and cannot find any lighter (shorter) cast bullets. But jacketed bullets do just fine.
 
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